Which?
Is jogging after dark imprudent?
Walking across a mall parking lot alone in the dark?
Driving cross country alone?
Working late in an office with a man you don’t know well?
Staying out late and walking into your apartment or house after midnight?
Everyone is turned into a weakling by a gun or a knife. Everyone including men. Which is probably why men are more vulnerable to non-rape violence than women are. Men have an overinflated sense of their strength and fighting prowess and thus tend to put themselves in positions where they are outmatched.
We don’t have special pleadings targeted at men despite all the beat-up and shot-at men who get rushed to the ER every day. Indeed, we encourage men to be brave and take risks and to ignore all the grim statistics.
I am wondering what you would think if one of your male children decided he was too afraid to live on his own given the rampant gun violence out there and chose to continue living with you indefinitely. Would you embrace this as a responsible risk mitigation strategy or would you think you had raised a wimp? And would your opinions change if we were talking about one of your daughters making this decision.
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The problem with bringing up these other situations in these discussions is that either they don’t occur with the same frequency as sexual assault against women and/or they are not as emotionally impactful. Most people don’t live in fear of gun or physical violence because the odds for them are very low. The chance of dying from gun violence is something like 1/300. And even on a day-to-day basis, most people have zero instances of anything that could be considered risk of physical violence. However, in the times when women speak about their experience with sexual assault, they typically mention instances that happen on a near-daily basis that make them uncomfortable, such as leering, randos hitting on them, catcalls, etc. If anyone experienced similar occurrences with regard to physical violence, then they would worry about it more and make appropriate changes in their lifestyle.
And then for things like property crime, they are so trivial compared to sexual assault. If you get your car stolen, oh well. It’s a bit of a hassle and then you move on. Rarely will it leave deep emotional scars that shape the rest of your life.
The dragged-into-the-bushes kind of rape that we are talking about is also a rare occurrence. Most rape victims know their attackers, and they aren’t attacked randomly in random locations, but in settings where sexual activity is likely to occur. Like in someone’s bedroom.
Yes, lots of women feel uncomfortable by catcalls and bring hit on. But none of that is rape. That is not sexual assault. And believe it or not, there are some women that love that kind of attention, despite having been victims of sexual abuse.
The fact that people drive over the speed limit doesn’t indicate that there is an epidemic of reckless homicidal drivers out there. Men who skirt the line of sexual conduct certainly exist in high numbers. But it would be crazy to surmise from this that rape is widespread.
Sexual assault includes a lot of things. A forced kiss is sexual assault. Groping someone’s breasts is sexual assault. Maybe I am a weirdo, but I would much rather someone grope my breasts than snatch my purse. I’d rather have someone snatch my clothes off at gunpoint than pistol whip me so they can steal my car. But YMMV.
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Maybe, but not in any jurisdiction I’m familiar with. Some form or simple assault or battery, certainly, but I don’t know of anywhere that it’s considered sexual assault.
Who is this “we” who tells women these things? They must not be persuasive because I see unaccompanied women out constantly. What percentage of women are afraid to leave their house alone? Maybe 1-2%.
I’m a guy, but I think the point they are making is they are constantly told that, but it’s ridiculous advice so they don’t heed it. And then when something bad happens, they are told “SEE??? Told you not to do that”
Or they go out in pairs, or during the day instead of at night. They leave work earlier than they would have otherwise. They park in a lighted place at the mall. I’m one of the bravest women I know on these things, and there are still a ton of things I don’t do that I think I would if I were a man.
You don’t know how many women are afraid so you are going to make up some arbitrarily low percentage? Why, that isn’t irrational at all.
According to the General Social Survey, women were more than twice as likely than men to report they were afraid to walk in their neighborhood alone at night.
Which doesn’t mean you won’t ever see women walking alone at night. Fear doesn’t stop most people from doing what they have to do to live a somewhat normal life.
But plenty of women do pay extra to accommodate their fear. I once had a co-worker friend who was willing to spend an exorbitant amount in rent just to avoid living in (her words) the “ghetto”. The ghetto being where–as she told me–a white woman like her would be a prime target.
I could have pointed her to the crime stats showing her that her expensive address was just as crime-ridden as the so-called ghetto she was afraid of (turns out high-demand neighborhoods full of rich hipsters attract their fair share of thieves and muggers, whodathunkit). I could have also told her that by stats alone, she was at a lower risk of being a crime victim in the black ghetto than I would be, since most crime is intraracial. Violent crime in the ghetto also tends to be non-random (domestic disputes). But Nancy Grace has made pretty white women the face of victimhood, so I guess my coworker’s fears sorta-kinda made sense.
With all that money she spent to maintain a false sense of security, she could have rented a house with a big yard for her black lab and had a garden and plenty of street parking. So there are opportunity costs to fear. Sure, you see lots of women going about their day outdoors like everything is fine. But you don’t see all the little decisions they make that represent wasted time, energy, and money.
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…what jurisdiction in what universe do you live in? The decision between whether or not to charge someone for sexual assault or for simple assault or for battery isn’t typically set out in the statutes. Its a matter of interpretation.
I can’t think of anything I want to do that I am too afraid to do but that I would do if I were a dude.
But I do have lots of adventures that I keep secret because I just don’t want to hear all the lecturing and gasping of breath. Like, I don’t think I ever told my parents I went camping at Bennett Field in Brooklyn, NYC. I think I told them I stayed at a youth hostel. If I were a guy, I would have told them the truth with no hesitation.
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This simple example has clarified a lot for me. I consider your parents as being overprotective if they object to you camping alone. The additional risk is negligible and shouldn’t prevent you from doing something like that. But as you’ve been saying, that kind of overprotection isn’t nearly as common for men anyway in other areas of life. I’m sure if men were constantly being told not to do this, that, and whatever for no real reason, they would get fed up with it.
I think some of the conflict in the thread is the difference between overprotective warnings versus prudent warnings. In some situations, the risk to women is much greater than men and extra precautions or change in behavior is justified. For example, consider the situation of an inebriated person getting a ride home. Depending on the genders of the people giving the ride and their relationship to the inebriated person, the risks are different. Here’s what I might recommend for an inebriated woman versus man getting a ride:
With a group of friends (regardless of genders): W=yes, M=yes
With a single male friend: W=maybe, M=yes
With a single female friend: W=yes, M=yes
With a coed group of acquaintances: W=maybe, M=yes
With a female group of acquaintances: W=yes, M=yes
With a male group of acquaintances: W=no, M=maybe
With a single male acquaintance: W=no, M=maybe
With a single female acquaintance: W=yes, M=maybe
With a group of strangers: W=no, M=no
With a single stranger: W=no, M=no
I’m basing these assumptions on the common stories of inebriated women being assaulted by men. While I’m certain that it can happen to inebriated men as well, those situations seem to be relatively rare. But this would be an example of some situations where I feel extra precautions or behavior modification is justified based on the increased risk.
This is a really good example of bad faith.
Cite for forced kisses being prosecuted as sexual assault?
I have no more concern for my daughter facing “violent stranger rape” than I would for a (hypothetical) son being mugged.
In choosing parking spots, working hours etc I would give them the same advice.
Where it would differ for me would be in the sort of situation “accepting a ride” described above.
Where I also differ would be in alcohol and parties.
In a what if…Daughter goes out with a group of friends, bars close, they continue to party with a friend of a friend, daughter gets pass out drunk, spends the night at unknown house. I would be upset at her. I would not be upset at a son doing the same thing.
Or in another situation - I have had wife call me from the back of a cab, “I don’t know where I am”. I was angry about that.
In such situations - the (realistic chance) worst thing that’s going to happen - boy loses phone, wallet and pants. If that were to happen - I would call him a moron.
Worst thing that happens to a lady - some less scrupulous person that she doesn’t know takes advantage of her inebriation. If I even suggested that she was foolish, I would be excoriated.
Is it fair that male and female face a different risk calculus? Absolutely not.
Is it the reality of the situation and the different outcomes they face?
I believe so
…I don’t need to provide a cite for something I didn’t assert. You said:
What jurisdiction’s are you familiar with? For example the Justice Department in Canada offers this advice:
https://www.justice.gov.nt.ca/en/files/victim-services/Sexual%20Assault%20Presentation.pdf
So you’ve got a datapoint now.
What you did was to assert a lot of bullshit, starting with questioning what universe I’m from. So you clearly don’t believe that forced kissing is not generally prosecuted as sexual assault.
Great. Thanks. Got anything from the US?
I don’t think my parents are overprotective. They have never burdened me with their worries or tried to make me feel like I was flirting with danger. Even when they were scared out of their minds about me working around their alligators, they never shared that with me (except once and it was hilarious). My parents are awesome with how they handle their fear.
But they have their limits. My parents are city slickers who simply don’t “get” the appeal of camping. Let alone solo camping in the middle of urban wilderness. I actually don’t even think rapists would be their primary concern, but rather wild animals.
See, for me this rubric is so simplistic that it is useless. The gender of the individuals involved is not sufficient for me to determine how to advise a specific individual (my hypothetical college-aged daughter, let’s say).
Like, I might tell my daughter not to trust her current set of a female friends to get her home if I know those girls are immature and stupid. I might tell her to call her her best friend who is a guy. I might tell her to always call a cab , Uber, or me instead of relying on her friends.
I guess what I’m saying is that I would never give such simplistic advice. But YMMV.
You don’t hear all the stories about women getting drunk without having anything happening to them. You only hear about the tragedies. So you don’t actually know the incidence rate.
You also don’t hear all the stories about men getting raped because there’s a taboo about talking about it. But men do talk about this stuff on reddit.
Imma be honest. I think giving advice makes parents feel like they are preparing their children, but 90% of that advice just ends up being ignored when shit gets real. I’m pretty sure that most drunk girls who accept rides from boys do so knowing they are going against their parents’ advice. And when they get home safe and sound enough times, guess what they learn? They learn that their parents’ advice is wrong.
…LOL.
You didn’t assert that “forced kissing is not generally prosecuted as sexual assault.” You’ve pivoted your position.
You now concede that “forced kissing is not **generally **prosecuted as sexual assault.” You’ve done my work for me.
But just for your information
From the US Marines Corps Community page on “Exactly What is Sexual Assault?”
https://usmc-mccs.org/articles/exactly-what-is-sexual-assault/
From the US Department of Justice:
How that is applied by Federal, State or tribal prosecutors is a matter of interpretation. It isn’t really that hard to understand.