Not under every circumstance.
I think you are very, very wrong about this. For one thing, I don’t think most people are that specifically reflective. But what I think rapists think is “I am going to get laid tonight”. And remember, most rape is not a stranger shoving you into a dark ally–it’s people you know, who feel like they can get away with it. A disturbing amount of rape comes from a person in the household. Someone’s stepfather or uncle or babysitter didn’t go out hoping to have consensual sex, and resort to rape out of frustration. Often people are raped by people they were intending, or at least considering, having sex with–they voluntarily went to a private location, but the rapist attacks them, rather than letting events unfold. That’s not someone who is so aroused that they can’t wait. That’s someone who likes rape better than sex. And shoving-a-girl-into-an-alley rape is not a spontaneous act. You don’t grab a girl and look for an alley–there probably won’t be one, and now you have a problem. You find an alley and wait for a girl–and you look for one who you don’t think will fight back, or you think won’t report anything.
I have this whole theory that I’ve talked about here that one of the biggest problems with human brains is that we think in narrative, and when we do, we identify with the person who has the same sex as us (then the person with the same race, then the same age, then the same social class). This is what identity means. So when you hear a story about a woman being raped by a man, you insert yourself into the story as the man–you seek to understand it by putting yourself in that place and using your own experiences and nature to understand it. I am NOT saying that this means you are okay with rape, but just that the point of view you adopt is that of the man, because everything in your upbringing, and possibly your biology, has trained you to experience narrative that way. This means that when you try to understand what happens, you imagine the man is like you, only more so–more aroused, more tempted, less impulse control: same spectrums, only a different place. But this isn’t true. Rapists aren’t like you. They aren’t settling for rape because they couldn’t get sex. If that was the case, more sexually permissive cultures would have less rape, because there would be more licit ways to get satisfaction. Or places with more prostitutes. Or places with more porn. Dudes with sex partners and very attractive dudes would be less likely to commit rape. But none of that seems to be the case.
Maybe the statement about appearance needs some qualifiers around it. I agree that in the scenarios you’ve presented that appearance will not make much of a difference. However, I can’t believe that’s true in every scenario. As was said above, men are very visual and very attuned to the way women dress. As a man myself, I have these same observations and it’s very common for other men to also make these same kinds of observations. It is so ubiquitous of a behavior in men that it’s impossible for me to believe that a man capable of sexual assault would not also have this same trait and put no consideration to the appearance of their victim in every scenario.
Like I said, I agree with the scenarios you mentioned, but other scenarios I would expect appearance to have a much greater factor. For example, for an asshole at a party or bar who has the attitude “I’m going to find some chick to bang”, appearance is going to likely play a major role in who they decide to start interacting with.
And there are instances where appearance is almost certainly the only factor in cases of sexual harassment and sexual indecency. One is when men sit in cars masturbating near beaches and such where they can watch women wearing skimpy clothing. Another is where men will take pictures of women in public wearing revealing clothes, clothes with gaps, sitting on stairs in skirts, etc. These are cases which are greatly influenced by what the women are wearing. Although these aren’t instances of rape, certainly the women would feel sexually violated being a subject of this kind of behavior.
I really hope there’s a productive way to discuss this and come to a consensus on how to express it. As it is now, people like me immediately see the statement as false because of what I know about men and from examples like above. Then the intention of message of the statement gets lost and the education and social change doesn’t happen.
I am going to have to finish this later. I have lots of thoughts, but not much time. Here’s the first: you seem pretty certain that rape is rooted in the same sort of sexual desire, the same triggers and needs, as normal sexual expression. I suspect you don’t think this way about other crimes: when you hear about a man beating his wife or child to death, do you think about the times you’ve been really, really mad at your wife or children, and imagine it was like that, only more rage? When you hear about children being raped, do you think about times you’ve been sexually attracted to a woman, and imagine they went through a similar experience, but reacted differently? When you hear about theft, do you assume they were motivated by the same sort of greed you feel on occasion, only more so? I know I don’t. I don’t understand why or how someone could beat a child to death. Slap one, sure, but not feel the bones collapse under my feet and keep going. I can’t imagine what motivates a child rapist. I feel sick typing that. I can think of no clearer description of “rape culture” than the fact that we treat rape of full grown women as “normal sex, only forced”, not as a categorically different thing, like these other crimes.
Yes, I’m guessing that kind of guy would seek out a woman dressed like she’s at a frat party over a woman dressed like she’s on her way to a prayer meeting.
But here’s the rub: A woman who wants to attract positive male attention at a frat party is not going to want to dress like she’s on her way to a prayer meeting. She’s going to want to dress in a way that says, “LET’S HAVE FUN!” So urging her to wear a conservative outfit is basically telling her that you don’t care if she doesn’t hook up with anyone or have a good time fitting in with her peers.
We know carjackers don’t tend go after 20-year-old rust buckets, but instead go after late-model, high-end cars. And yet we don’t tell people to not drive nice automobiles if they want to avoid getting carjacked. Cars aren’t just a means of getting from point A to point B. And we don’t just wear clothes to keep us warm. I don’t see guys dressing like homeless bums to avoid getting robbed. So why should women change their style of dress to avoid getting raped?
I once read an autobiography written by a Saudi princess. Of course in Saudi Arabia women are expected to cover their bodies from head to toe. You’d think that in such a country, women would never attract the male gaze, but the princess explained how that it is to laugh. Turns out wearing a niqab announces to men that a woman is ripe for the picking. The mere flash of a bare wrist or ankle is enough to arouse a guy.
We only need to look at the sexual abuse scandals in religious organizations to disprove the idea that rapists are particularly allured by clothing choices.
I certainly think it is possible that rapists all have a “look” they are attracted to. The “I’m going to find some chicks to bang” guy likely has his idea of who’s “fuckable” and he isn’t. But I really don’t think he’s looking at (or just at) clothing to make that determination. Like if we had statistics showing that rapists are more likely to pass over bald-headed women for women with long flowing hair, I really hope we wouldn’t urge women to shave off their heads. A lot of heterosexual, non-rapist men would have serious problems with that approach to risk mitigation, not to mention all the women who love their hair.
David Lisak, Gavin de Becker, Lundie Bancroft-----any of these researchers could tell from actually studying rapists that many, many, rapists do so coldly and deliberately. How many coincidences is it before the calculation becomes obvious? Gets woman drunk or drugged. Gets her isolated. Picks one woman who’s by herself. Someone smaller than him. How odd that it worked out so neatly for him.
A neat trick is to ask a guy who offers you a drink if he can you a sandwich instead. It’s probably cheaper thank a drink, right?
Some guys will get enraged at that. Wonder why?
For the extreme cases like a serial rapist, pedophile, serial murder, etc. I’m not really sure I understand what goes on in their head or whether how I think is similar to how they think. But for for the less extreme examples, I can often see that path between how I think of the situation and how they think of the situation. There are times when I’ve been so angry I wanted to beat someone up. So then I can magnify those feelings and imagine how someone with poor impulse control could beat someone to death.
For the cases like Aziz Ansari or Brett Kavanaugh, I can also see the path between my thoughts and what they did. I’ve never done anything close to those things, but I see their actions as the extreme versions of thoughts and behaviors that are typical in men. Men objectify women. Men are greatly focused on sex. It’s not surprising to me that men who don’t care or don’t pick up on the signs that their actions are not appropriate would do those kinds of things. I think the thing that is different in those men is they lack a moral foundation rather than they have a totally different way of thinking.
For something like a 20-year-old asshole at a college party looking to “bang some chick”, I feel I can extrapolate from my own thoughts and experiences to imagine what is going through his head and how he’s making his decision. When I was 20, I certainly noticed a hot girl at the party and might have inappropriate thoughts about her. The asshole likely has the same thoughts as me, but feels entitled or lacks a moral compass. I would assume an asshole who just wants sex is going to be looking for more superficial attributes, like who is the “hottest chick he can bang”, and appearance would be a large part of that. But that doesn’t mean she has to wear a burka or never go to parties. She can still wear whatever she wants, but certain appearances are more likely to attract these kinds of assholes and more caution would be warranted in those situations. It would be very helpful if we could convey that concept without it sounding like victim blaming or that rape is inevitable if someone is dressed in a certain way.
I think you’re wrong. Some rape and wife/child abuse is about power, sone is just sexual desire and anger. If a man stabs another adult man, do you immediately reject anger and rage might be to blame? That it was all about “power”?
But the advice that is given to women re clothing choices isn’t helpful. It’s not based on facts and statistics, but on baseless assumptions that is oddly culture-specific.
To wit, the mini skirt used to be scandalous. Something that only whores would dare to wear. I’m sure many parents back in the 1960s and 1970s scolded their daughters for wearing mini skirts (and with white gogo boots too!) on the grounds that it would tempt rapists.
But nowadays, the mini skirt is mainstream. Parents who would scold their daughter for wearing one would be considered overly controlling jerks, not that different from the Taliban.
Right now, there are parents in orthodox countries scolding their daughters for leaving the house with no headscarf or with a shirt that doesn’t cover her backside all the way. “What are you thinking, leaving the house dressed like a whore! Do you WANT to be raped?!”
Consider for a moment that a woman can simulataneously want sex and also not want to be raped. From what you’re positing, it seems you think non-rapist good guys would be attracted to a woman no matter how she’s dressed. But I don’t think that’s true. A woman who is wearing an outfit that shows off her figure is always going to get more of the male gaze than the woman who wears a more shapeless outfit. Does that mean the latter is always going to be disadvantaged when it comes to romance? No. But it does mean if a woman wants to hook up with a guy at a frat party, she’ll have a better shot at doing that if she’s dressed in a way that’s accentuates her sexual qualities. Telling her to wear something she wants as long as it lowers her chances of having consensual sex with a guy by the end of the night is essentially telling her not to wear what she wants.
But I think most rapes are committed by serial rapists. There are many, many more women who have a terrible memory of being raped than men who have a terrible memory of that one time they raped a girl. A couple people in this thread have pointed out that when they ran rape kits from rapes where the perpetrator was already known, they found a bunch of serial rapists–in fact, the date rapist was often also a stranger rapist.
I also think you really underestimate how important it is for rapists to not get caught. In my experience, and in everything I’ve read, included interviews of rapists, not being caught was their most important consideration. They don’t have the option of picking the most attractive person. I think it’s naive to think that it’s about the person at all: sure, the hot chick at the party may have aroused them, but that just increases the chances they will rape someone, not her. Most rapes are about opportunity. I think it’s a mistake to assume that you would murder or rape someone if you were just you, without a moral compass. I think rapists like rape. Give them a holodeck, they’d rape a fake woman. THEN they would probably pick a super-hot one, but that’s a flexible detail. The goal, the pleasure, is in the rape.
I have a good friend who seems to be sexually harassed way, way out of proportion to all my other friends. It’s not common, but we’ve been close since 7th grade, and all the way through middle school, high school, college, and the rest of our lives, she’s had more inappropriate attention than any other three of my friends combined. And she’s very much less attractive than average. She’s always been significantly overweight and while she’s nice looking and stylish, she’s not conventionally beautiful. She dresses well within normal tolerances. I honestly have no idea why she is so often targeted. It may be that she’s non-confrontational, and her body language shows that.
I mean, I feel like you are “Ok, take out the rapes that occur within a household or romantic relationship or on a date, and leave out the rapes committed by serial rapists who plan what they are doing and all the rest of the rapes, I think I have a handle on how those guys think, and women dressing more conservatively would reduce those”. Well, there aren’t many of those. You’ve excluded the vast, vast majority of rapes.
I don’t reject anger and rage, but I think it’s categorically different than the rage I feel, or there’s something else in play as well. I couldn’t do that. I couldn’t stab another person out of simple rage. Most rapists rape repeatedly. I think a big part of what they like is the sex part–but the type of sex they like is rape. Bill Cosby didn’t need to drug those girls–but it was more fun for him when he did.
Seriously. Current estimates are that 1/5 women are raped at some point in their lives. Do you think anything like 1/5 is a rapist? If it’s even 1/50–which I think is high–that’s an average of ten victims (not 10 rapes) each. That’s a lifestyle, not a matter of losing your head that one time and stabbing a guy. What do you think it going on in the head of someone who has stabbed ten, twenty, a hundred men?
If someone’s committing rape out of anger (i.e. they’re angry the woman won’t give into his advances), then the rape is about power – using force to exercise that power to “prove” to the woman that it doesn’t matter what she wants, it only matters what the rapist wants.
Manda JO brought up Bill Cosby.
I recall guys on Reddit going on and on about how one of the accusers was unattractive and thus there was no way Bill would rape her.
But it is clear to me that Bill’s accusers were quite similar in their physical appearance. He was going after women with a certain look and that look just happened to not align with what is attractive according to the standards of a bunch of 19-year-old boys.
Which is why non-raping men need to stop trying to get into the minds of rapists. It is when guys do this that they start drawing crazy and harmful conclusions. Rapists have their own motivations for who they target. Maybe they have mommy issues so they attack women who look like their mothers. Maybe they have a thing about mouthy “broads” who are too uppity, so they go after women who resemble this caricature. If we would never tell a girl to avoid being talkative and confident at a party lest she attract the attention of a rapist, then it should never occur to us to tell her to dress more modestly for the same reason. People only do the latter because it seems less dickish to do for some reason. But both are dickish.
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That is a real odd appeal to common sense. If having sex with a girl too drunk to consent is a rapist, yes 1/5 is not remotely outside of my read of the world. I will always remember a girl relating the story of why she thought some guy was a creep: he had sex with a passed out girl. The woman relating the story hesitated, assuming me and the other guy probably had done the same thing.
She might have hesitated because there are a lot of guys (and women) who don’t see that as rape. So maybe she assumed you were one of them.
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There are undoubtedly a bunch of guys responsible for a larger percentage but I’m not swearing off 1/5.
Eta: @monstro, maybe but it IS rape regardless and no doubt included in " 1/5 women are raped" statistic. And she specifically said “you guys probably did it” not “you guys might not consider this rape”. In fact, I was the one who brought up the word. I said “umm, no. I never raped anyone.”
I agree with the difference. I was thinking more about date rape or acquaintance rape situations. But in cases of stranger rape like you describe, appearance likely won’t be significantly important.
Holy smokes, I would be! Maybe he wouldn’t be at as much risk of getting raped, but there are certainly plenty of other terrible things that can happen to a person, male or female, if they’re highly intoxicated and pass out at an unknown location.
My brother did that kind of thing a few times when he was much younger and much more foolish.
Wowzers, I actually agree with you! :eek:
Anecdote: The one person I have known personally who was a child molester (that I know of) had multiple victims, possibly dozens - all relatives - and of course there’s the collateral damage from the victims’ fractured relationships. Among other things, all of his kids, including his son who denied being abused or knowing about it at the time, made horrifically bad decisions when it came to picking spouses and the parents of their children.
And the only common thing about the Cosby victims that I’ve seen interviewed, WRT their physical appearance, was that they were female.
And I bet nothing particularly serious happened to your brother. Just like nothing serious much happened to me as a young man drinking too much at a party. (Other than shit I directly caused myself)