Why is it one or the other? How about because we have hundreds of years of stupid rules and advice to women and it hasn’t stopped rape or even slowed it down. Insanity is continually repeating an experiment with the same parameters and expecting a different result. So what say we stop doing the thing we KNOW doesn’t work and try something else, like trying to train young men not to rape? That work for everyone?
Bullshit. Nothing I said suggests that those factors would make me any less guilty or culpable or responsible, legally or ethically, if that confluence of circumstances had occurred and I had committed a rape.
Quoting wikipedia, bolding mine:
Over the last four decades, rape has been declining. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted annual per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped in 1980) to about 0.4 per 1000 people in 2003, a decline of about 85%. There are several possible explanations for this, including stricter laws and education on security for women.
Wanna buy a bridge? I have a couple of nice ones, cheap.
I think you should probably go ahead and lump all men in that category then if you’re going to make that leap. I don’t see Max’s scenario as particularly unique for what most boys that age would do. My scenario was pretty close. Some of my friends from back then I would trust less than me to do the right thing.
Are women wired the same way? Are there any scenarios where they could realistically consider being tempted to commit sexual assault? Or what about imagine carrying it out? If so, how common do you think that is among women in general?
I actually think it’s fine to consider all teen boys as potential rapists. It would reflect what I consider the reality of the situation. But we have to be realistic that the potential is different in different situations. If we can have this foundation, we can shape the conversation around what needs to be said in what situations to really make a difference.
Did that make you feel better? Do you feel victorious, because that’s the REAL issue here, making sure there’s a reason to brush off women?
Focusing on dress and attractiveness follows a long, ugly tradition of misogyny that persists today.
We have a President who has been accused of rape multiple times and his go-to defense? “Have you seen her? She isn’t my type.” And people believe this.
This didn’t come out of nowhere. Rapists have been saying the same thing since time started. It works because the implication that a powerful man would need to force a plain Jane to have sex with him defies so-called common sense, so obviously she’s lying about the whole thing to flatter herself.
And if she is extra attractive? And has the audacity to flaunt this attractiveness in a setting where men and women flirt with one another? Then the defense turns to “Come on, she really wanted it. Look at what she was wearing!” She’s a slut, in other words. And he’s a hapless male that walked into a trap.
Either way, the guy is off the hook. Where this leaves women is that they pretty much have to prove they are pillars of the community before being believed, and then even then, they will face skepticism.
Another point is that the fixation with attractiveness really makes no sense when you consider that rape often occurs in the context of intimate partner violence. Does anyone really think conventionally attractive women have a monopoly on these kind of relationships? If I were to speculate, it would be women who fall below the standard of beauty who most often would have abusive partners, out of the belief that they can’t do any better.
Men convicted of rape often have access to consensual sex. Whom are they having this sex with? Perhaps it’s girlfriends and wives whom they regularly have consensual sex with, in addition to frequent or occasional bouts of rape and other violence thrown in. Something tells me these guys wouldn’t hesitate to step outside their relationships to have sex with and rape other women.
Why did you stop at 2013? From 2013-2018, rape increased.
From here
More facts
We should have campaigns to stop men from drinking to excess; it has the potential to stop (47+17)64% of rapes and that’s one of the biggest bang for the bucks.
In the US ~26% of rapes are stranger rapes leaving ~74% by someone the victim knows. 26% is by a current or former partner.
I bet that these facts will be ignored so we can go back to discussing why women who dress attractively really are dumb and could have avoided being raped.
Oooh, maybe some men will come and tell us how rape is like various sorts of property crime, making it titanically obvious that patriarchal rape cultures consider women to be just another sort of chattel and the real crime involved in rape is the damaging and devaluation of someone else’s belongings. That’s always special.
“If women just uglified themselves a little bit, they would stop being asked on so many dates and thus their encounters with dape rapists would decrease.”
I can see how this would make sense to someone who lacks a sense of humanity and empathy for others. It actually does sound like something an Incel would think.
But why should a woman care about what an Incel thinks? To me, this is where the argument falls apart. Incels are stupid and delusional. We shouldn’t let stupid and delusional people dictate our behavior, not even a little bit.
So basically, what I got from this thread is that rape isn’t the fault of rapists (poor dears get “shot down”, women “push the wrong buttons”), they somehow “get” drunk, “get” angry, “get” horny, “get” angry at being “shot down”, and what’s a poor oppressed dude to so but take it out on some uppity tart who deliberately dressed like a slut? And thinks she can get away with that type of abusing men?
No, rape is the fault of women, who think they can assault mens’ eyes and get away with it. It’s almost like some guys have a huge chip on their shoulder and are just looking for an excuse.
Or maybe the logic is more like “What do you expect to happen when you make yourself look all hot and desirable? Of course men are going to try to rape you. You bitches want to dress like sluts but be immune from the natural consequences, but you can’t have it both ways.”
We know that “dressing like a slut” is all subjective and relative. If you have shapely hips and bottom, a well-tailored pair of pants is just as “provocative” as a miniskirt on a women with shapely legs. If you have ample breasts, you’re just as liable turn to heads in a boring fitted V-neck sweater as a less endowed woman wearing a crop top. So what are we considering provocatively dress? Any outfit that fails to prevent a woman’s physique from causing male arousal.
Do guys who imbibe this belief really think that if women en masse started wearing like Little House on the Prairie dresses, rapists would lose motivation to rape? All we have to do is look at societies where women, in effect, are coerced into uglifying themselves and we can see that all that happens is that the bar for “dressing like a slut” is lowered. You can be accused of dressing provocatively if your hem stops at the calf instead of the ankle.
Only an incel would romanticize a society like this because it would mean female consent would no longer matter. Men would be complete control over everything, including access to sex.
The shoulder chips are there alright, but not on the men participating in this thread …
Literally no one has said or claimed any of that bullshit you just posted and frankly it does a disservice to the side you are arguing.
Look, I get that you are angry at men or angry at society for allowing rape to happen but damn, you will NEED the participation of MEN to make any sort of dent or change that you want.
The statistic about alcohol being involved in 64% of all rapes (mostly date rape I assume) is pretty eye opening. Maybe we need to up the drinking age, or make it available only to married people?
Bottom line, MEN are willing to have these discussions but so far the way that some of the argumentation comes off it’s blaming ALL men for something a small % do. Never a good thing that.
Max and Filmore both have been very frank and forthcoming. I tend to believe them, as I was once a young man and gladly I was never in those shoes to have to make the decision that they describe… Rape (violent random) vs we are dating and she has said no before but she’s not saying no right now is a very different line to cross that is likely a legal minefield for young boys all around.
I am not trying to diminish your rage at the culprits of this heinous reality, but it IS a reality. How we move forward is up to us all. Blaming the boys and culture is a start but it also flies in the face of reality.
I think everyone here wants the reduction of rape violent or otherwise. When people provide advice, it is advice given based upon the current reality (and their own perceptions)
Bouncing off someone else’s comment about the obsession with victim apparel. Someone asked why NONE of the advice was about parking lots and jogging and taking walks and parking garages and working late, it was only about clothing.
That’s because clothing means sex, and sex is not rape, and furthermore, clothes mean women are provoking men, so men are really the true victims here, with those hussies expecting to swan about in skimpy outfits and not get punished. The clothing obsession frames women as the real attackers, because somehow a woman who is attractive is making promises she has no intention of keeping, according to these poor victimized guys. She’s conning guys with her miniskirts, then claiming victimhood. Therefore, accusing men of assault is dishonest in about five different ways, because she really was the attacker in their mind.
This is the mindset behind those disgusting school dress codes that never ever seem to punish boys, or white boys-----for “distracting” girls. Boys will be boys, and one part of boyhood is apparently the notion that “boys” can’t be expected to control themselves, so everybody else in the world----oh, wait, nope, just women----has to hide from men and give them the freedom of a world cleared of temptation for their convenience.
What is this fascination I see white “white men” or “white boys”
Are white men or boys more prone to rape than any other man or boy?
These comments about dress codes come up often, but it’s probably worth figuring out who is really complaining. From my impression both in the workplace and school environments, it’s other women who are displeased about women wearing revealing clothes. My experience is just anecdotal since I’m not privy to the actual complaints, but I don’t have any experience with men or boys in those places actually complaining about revealing clothes. The few times I’ve seen a woman in revealing clothes at work, it seems like the other women are the ones looking at her with disapproval. As a student, neither I nor any of my male friends complained as far as I know. I don’t remember if any girls complained. As a parent, one incident I know about is when parents were complaining about how revealing the outfits were on the dance crew and how sexual their dances were (e.g. twerking). That discussion happened on facebook and it was pretty much all women going back and forth.
The real difference in attractiveness is not pre and post legal age but pre and post puberty. There are many men who are attracted to 10-15 year olds who have gone through puberty, but would never act on that attraction either because of social sanction or basic morality. By definition rapists are immoral criminals so normal restraints do not work on them.
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It seems to follow logically that if attractiveness is a risk factor then making yourself more attractive would increase risk. I don’t see how it could be otherwise.
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I don’t think women are stupid in general for making themselves more attractive. As has been pointed out rates of victimization are down 85% from their peak, plus risk varies greatly depending on place, this means that currently in most places risk of rape is very slight. Thus it is usually not worth it for women to forego to the good feeling of being attractive for the slightly less risk of rape. However, that is a decision for each woman to make individually depending on her personal willingness to assume risk.
Your unwillingness to believe law enforcement statistics is based on what?
As I’ve said before, lots of the social pressure to follow the rape rules comes from male family members and female friends/co-workers/etc (and family). A dude you work with isn’t going to tell you it’s not safe to travel across country alone, but he may well tell his female relatives. Women repeat these to each other, because, and I want to be very clear about this, as a society, we associate being neurotic (high-anxiety and prone to worry) with being feminine. Expressing worry and anxiety is, in many ways, especially with the older generation, an expression of sexual identity. This is six types of fucked up, but it’s true. And so we get submerged in a flurry of rape warnings from all corners, from birth. And then you guys want to have intellectual discussions of what you think is all uncharted territory.
And there are lots and lots of reasons why people object to overt displays of female sexuality. Rape risk is one small facet.
I want to be very clear: you think the average man is as likely to be attracted to 12 year olds at 22 year olds, and it’s only social pressure that makes men refrain from expressing that attraction?
It makes perfect sense to me that there would be a level of attractiveness that was basically attractive enough, and that once a woman was over that threshold, the details wouldn’t matter much. Most men seem to act like this in terms of dating, honestly.