Okay, the past couple of weeks have convinced me that America’s police forces are, in the main, rancid dumpster fires, as opposed to the proverbial few rotten apples. A lot of the articles and posts I’ve seen link said dumpster fireism to America’s specific history of racism.
So… non-American law enforcement should, at minimum, have a different burning trash can. I’m hoping there are at least some countries out there that do better than that. That have police that actually make people safer instead of more endangered, that see the community as partners rather than hostiles.
Which countries do this whole “police” thing right? And what concrete steps can America learn from them?
I was under the impression that police in the Netherlands tend to be responsible, humane and civic minded.
I’ve been wondering this same thing but I’ve been wondering how it applies to riot police. It seems the job of riot police is to shut people up when they have legit grievances.
Like in Hong Kong or the US, people have very legitimate grievances. The job of the police however is just to tell people to go home no matter how serious their concerns are. Are there nations where the police realize beating up people because they are protesting for democracy is a bad thing? If China tried to take our human rights away in the US, and people publicly protested it I’m sure the police would be out tear gassing, beating people, cutting tires, etc.
From what I’ve read the police in Japan do a good job. From my own experience I felt safer around the officers in Tokyo, Kyoto, and Himeji when I visited in 2008 than I do around the police in my hometown of Corpus Christi. The officers in question were on routine foot patrol, and I had no direct interaction with them other than walking past them on the sidewalk.
There are going to be some racist cops and scandals wherever you go, so I think this is why some people are hesitant to hold up any particular country as an example of policing done right.
But, it’s pretty easy to find countries doing it *better *than the US.
One simple difference is accountability. In many European countries, a person being seriously injured or killed during an arrest triggers a public investigation. Also any use of a firearm (e.g. a cop shoots once and misses, that’s still an inquiry right there).
Such cases are rare enough that I’m struggling to find enough examples to ascertain whether police convictions are more or less likely than the US’ where there has been clear wrongdoing.
I guess if they don’t happen much, that’s already a success story.
Sorry to have to be the bearer of bad news; the Dutch police are not as nice as you think.
Over the past four years, 41 people have died after encounters with the police. Over 40% were of (new official term) “a background of migration.” (Dutch nationals, but may have moved here themselves, or maybe their parents moved here.)
In March, a man died in circumstances similar to George Floyd. His name was Tomy Holten. He was adopted and had just received very confusing news about the circumstances of his adoption (incl that his name was actually Tony – can you imagine?) He was behaving erratically, though by all accounts not terribly threateningly, in a supermarket. He walked out of the supermarket with the security guard, but amicably. They literally hugged. The police arrived, threw him on the ground, put a boot on his face and his head, in a twist, between the other guy’s knees. He died an hour after being taken into custody.
They had asked him for his name and he had cried he didn’t know his own name.
I think the police were a lot nicer, until a few years ago. At least it feels that way? I don’t know if the statistics have changed.
I think they have real problems attracting people to the police and as a result are severely understaffed. Recently, they militarised the uniform, which predictably did no good in this world besides excite right-wing prats.
There’s now discussion of arming the not-quite-police; they’re called BOAs. They’re… as best I can tell, they’re types who didn’t manage the police academy, but they let them do something similar because the police are understaffed. So they were meant to go around, presumably… muttering “mind your language” at youths and helping people put rubbish in the right recycling bin, but can’t manage doing this without getting into a fight (again, predictably) and now they want weapons. Seems to me like giving people who are not dentists a drill and a bunch of drugs in hopes of improving dental health. Only more violence and racism.
The police in the UK used to be nice. Maybe that’s changed too? Most still don’t have guns. I remember them as being kind and patient. My dad was dropped off at home by the police, rather than him driving drunk. That was in the seventies, ha! Can’t they just do stuff like that?
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A friend of mine, an American teacher, got punked pretty badly by Tokyo police for kind of a minor drug offense. They do not get my endorsement. My dealings with Manila police impressed me with their professionalism, I don’t know what their general reputation is. That goes double for cops in South Korea.
You could also say that BOAs are exactly what some people here are talking about. People that do some of the ‘police work’, but they don’t have weapons and are not supposed to use force or make arrests. They do hand out fines.
For what it’s worth, it always seems to me that the authorities in the US (and Canada) want to exert their authority very clearly.
Even in the airports, the immagration officials seem to start from the assumption that you are there to commit crimes. Even when they let you through to spend your tourist dollars, it is more like “ok, now move before I change my mind” than “welcome to the US!”.
I think you’re right that this is, in large part, the idea behind BOAs. (There’s also the part of there not being enough police officers, not enough recruits and not enough people making it through the academy, so they came up with a short cut. A less charitable interpretation, but it seems at least part of the equation and both can be true.)
But then why are they attracting people to the work who get into fights? People into asserting that kind of authority? Why are they asking for weapons?
If you want people to do the more social side of policing, attract people who want to do that. Then train them so they’re actually good at that. If they don’t have the intelligence required to join the police, they shouldn’t do this either.
It’s a pickle, trying to get this right.
Thinking about this, I kept coming back to an article I read a while back (maybe someone posted it here?) about the success of IS. The support for IS among local populations was in large part not down to religion or even hatred of the West. It was because they brought a simple form of justice to people who hadn’t had access to it before. Not the beheading journalists, but the small potatoes, every day stuff. Someone steals something of yours, you can’t file a report because you can’t trust the local police, or you file a report but nothing is ever done with it. When IS came to town, they’d come along immediately, say: “give the chicken you stole back plus one extra for his troubles” and you’re done within the day. No hands chopped off, no prison, just the chicken back, fair 'n square. The support from the population was not for the ott horror we saw in the media, the regular, small stuff police justice that was actually quite good and fair.
So for the weirdest submission to this thread: Islamic State.
(But let’s not go full IS right away just coz I said it here, ok :p)
I think you’re right that it is tough to get this right, and that’s what everyone should realize.
It is part of the job of law enforcement to correct people that are breaking the law (it is for BOAs at least). That means telling people that they need to behave differently and/or fine people. The last few months it has been their job to fine people that are not socially distancing enough (1.5 meters). While I’m sure there are many examples where BOAs didn’t choose the right way of approaching people, it is inherent in this kind of job that people will be pissed of by laws being enforced. And some will get violent… it is unfair to just blame the BOAs for ‘getting into fights’. This is of course also the reason they want to be able to protect themselves; that’s why they are asking for pepper spray and/or sticks (nobody is asking for guns). I’m not sure if that is a good idea, but I understand why they might feel they should have them. It also is important to realize that the government is not giving in to these demands and has explicitly said that if any weapons are going to be available to the BOAs, they will need a lot of extra training as well.
It is completely unrealistic to think you can have law enforcement that will never have to speak up to people and actually enforce the law. Whether it is social distancing, riding you bike on the side walk or disrupting fights between people.
A number of countries, including the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, police by consent - where the police are considered to be citizens in uniform rather than enforcers of the state’s rules. Peelian principles - Wikipedia
It’s a subtle difference in principle but I have noticed in other European countries I’ve visited that the local police were a lot more confrontational in their demeanour than the British police I am used to. One of my best friends is a copper BTW - he thinks they are far too soft!
Now I’m saying this as a white male. We in the UK have had our problems with racism and police treatment of minorities and 20 years ago an independent commission called the police “institutionally racist” after a bungled investigation into the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence Stephen Lawrence: timeline of key events | Stephen Lawrence | The Guardian
The stats for police stops and arrests of black Brits in the UK is still skewed well above what it should be. But police brutality is not something we really have too much of here (no doubt somebody will easily be able to find exceptions). Not many of our police carry guns, but if the armed police ever use one in any circumstances it automatically triggers an investigation. So you don’t get too many bullets flying. They did shoot an innocent man in a tube station not too many years ago though…
So maybe we need people who do something other than enforcing laws? Because I agree that it is difficult to enforce anything without the “force” part.
The police should enforce laws and should be trained to do that. And maybe we need people who do other, social, friendly, helpful things that are not law enforcement. Things you don’t need pepperspray for.
The 2011 riots in the UK were caused by a police killing, and resemble the recent US riots in that regard.
The victim, Mark Duggan, was mixed race. I really don’t know if that is relevant; it is entirely possible that the riots would have happened if Duggan were white.
My impression is that most police work could be done by an unarmed force. Stopping a crime in progress, or apprehending someone who might be armed and dangerous, is AFAICT a fairly small part of what police do on a day-to-day basis.
So maybe have most police be unarmed, and have a small sub-unit to handle the handful of situations that one should carry a gun for. And you could weed police out of that unit who aren’t emotionally stable, or are on a power trip, or act in a racist manner.
Or (since you rarely see police working strictly on foot) have them keep their guns locked in the trunks of their cars, only take them out when there’s a need for it, and require them to fill out a short report every time they do that.
But you really don’t need anywhere near all police to have guns on their persons all the time. Relatively few situations will have a better outcome because a police officer has a gun, and many situations clearly have worse outcomes on that account.
I’ve noticed in Sint Maarten, the police on the Dutch side are laid back, eager to help, slow to anger. I once got a cop on the Dutch side to “pat me down” against his car while my gf took video.
Meanwhile the Saint Martin Gendarmes on the French side strut around and demand respect. I stay out of their way.