Which country makes the best cars?

[Johnny_L.A]

Just to be contrarian with Johnny L.A., but IMO Toyotas are just a smidge less well-built as an equivalent Honda. Not entirely sure why, but that’s just the vibe I get from riding in 'em.

As I meant to suggest in my post, my experience with Toyotas and Hondas (re: comparing impressions) is dated. Late-1970s.

My only quarrel with any of this is the oft-touted excellence of German autos. Mechanically, yes, but European makes are a continuing and frustrating source of electronic bugs and failures.

I’ve had two German cars; a Porsche 924 and a Porsche 911SC. The 924 (which was really an Audi, and was a very underrated car because it happened to be sold with a Porsche badge – it was really a good car, but suffered by comparison to “real Porsches”) had an annoying electrical glitch that caused the windscreen wiper to activate for no apparent reason. This happened especially often on hot days. I can’t recall any electrical problems with the 911.

I think German cars are pretty good but some makes like Volkswagen are over-rated. VW maybe used to be reliable but they’re not so good these days.

A former neighbour has a 1970 VW Beetle. Her brother bought it new, and she got it (I think) when it was a month or six months old. Basically, after all this time and considering that it’s still “in her family”, I’d consider it a “one-owner car”. After 33 years it’s still going strong. It’s a simple, solid car. I can’t imagine a Jetta or New Beetla lasting as long.

German cars are notorious for being packaged in ways that make them very hard to maintain. I remember one vehicle that needed to have the engine unbolted and lifted in order to change the rear spark plugs.

I remember reading a MPSIMS thread about changing a headlamp in a New Beetle. IIRC it requires a special tool, and the removal of… something. Bumper? I don’t remember. Basically, changing a headlamp would be a $50 shop job. I’ve driven a New Beetle, and I liked it. But such stupid engineering is unacceptable.

The Griffin: (Take your name from Munsters Go Home, by any chance? ) As has been mentioned, American cars are becoming more like Japanese cars. They mostly can’t compete with Japanese cars on fuel economy (my Chevy Sprint did; but then, it was built by Suzuki), but they’re getting better. What I don’t like about them is their quality of construction. That too, seems to be getting better; but still not as good as Japanese cars.

The biggest problem I have with American cars is that they tend to be too big. My first car was a 1966 MGB roadster. My second and third cars were 1977 MGB roadsters. Next came a Porsche 924, followed by a couple of Chevy Sprints. Then the 911. And, of course, I’ve been riding motorcycles since I was a wee’un. Japanese makers have produced “sport-cutes” that are very small; but if you’re looking at a serious SUV, my XJ Cherokee is one of the smallest next to the CJ/YJ/TJ series. (The Toyota Four-Runner is about the same size, I think.) It’s as short in length as a Honda sedan, and shorter in length than many cars. But I still consider it to be huge.

Compared to my earlier cars, American cars don’t handle worth crap. I remember reading an article in the 1980s about the (then-)new Corvette. It was considered to be great for wide, straight American highways, but not good for narrow, twisty European roads.

In my experience – and I point out that much of my experience is with sportscars – American cars don’t handle well at all. To me, they seem to “soft”. Their larger engines seem to take more time to come up to speed than the 4-cylinder (or in the case of the 911, 6-cylinder) powerplants I’ve used. My dad had a 1970 Ford Thunderbird with a 429 cu. in. engine. It accellerated well, but my impression was that it didn’t accellerate as well as one of my sportscars. (It probably did – or did better – but it was just an impression that I had at the time. Probably a result of turning an engine at 2,500 RPM when I’m used to turning it at 3,500-4,500 RPM.)

[Quartz]

Well, my Proton, a Malaysian car, passed the crunch test with flying colours: it crunched, I lived.

And I’ll echo The Griffin - American cars built for the American market aren’t even on the radar for most people here in the UK.

[Moirai]

A Land Rover saved me, my husband and my unborn son, so I’m still driving one (two, actually). Expensive to fix but worth it at any price.

As far as good old-fashioned steel goes, my first car was a 1957 Nash Metropolitan. Wow. An engine stolen from a sewing machine, but solid, heavy and tough. I would still have it if I could do it all again.

[zwede]

*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. *
In my experience – and I point out that much of my experience is with sportscars – American cars don’t handle well at all. To me, they seem to “soft”. Their larger engines seem to take more time to come up to speed than the 4-cylinder (or in the case of the 911, 6-cylinder) powerplants I’ve used.

This really is a myth… Take old performance oriented US cars out on a track against porsches, bmws, etc of the same vintage and you’d be surprised. I enjoy watching historical road races where they have to run old cars as they would have raced in the 60’s (i.e they can modify the cars for racing, but only with parts available in the 60’s), and the Ford Falcons are almost unbeatable. Cars I saw the Falcons beat included Jaguar 120’s, BMW, Minis, Anglias etc.

Road & Track magazine did a test way back in 1971 where they took a 1971 Corvette and a 1971 Porsche 911 to a road course to see which one was faster. To their surprise the Vette was faster in the turns as well as the straights and beat the Porsche by a large margin.

I guess I’m biased though as I own a '71 Corvette.

[Johnny_L.A]

(i.e they can modify the cars for racing, but only with parts available in the 60’s)

But you’re talking about modifications; not “out of the box”. I can tell you from experience that dad’s '70 T-Bird did not handle as well as my 911. Too soft. Modify the suspension? I don’t know. But in stock configuration the T-Bird rolled too much. Every American car I’ve driven or ridden in had too much roll. (Although I’ve never been in a Vette.)

[mangeorge]

I’m with Johnny Wherever on this one. Off-the-shelf american cars still don’t handle near as well as japanese or european cars.
I suspect the others expect their cars to be driven faster. At least the german ones do. One of my favorite cars to drive was my old '77 Rabbit.
I don’t think americans in general are willing to sacrifice comfort for performance, although modern suspensions are getting better at giving both.

[TheLoadedDog]

Having driven Australian-built cars for years ( and they are shit ), I love my Toyota. It’s seemingly bulletproof - take it for a tune every few months, and that’s it. Between services, the oil, water etc never drop even the tiniest fraction of an inch. It’s a little 1.6 manual. Not the fastest car on the road, but respectable enough pickup. The thing just keeps solfiering on without complaint - even with the way the missus drives it!

Now, one thing I’m noticing in this thread is that the Toyota / Honda situation in the US is different to here. Overr here, those two brands are considered the best for reliability, but Hondas have the price premium, not Toyotas. They are considered to be a bit more stylish, and the ricers like them. You’ll pay a few thousand extra for a Honda over the equivalent Toyota.

[Sam_Stone]

I’m with Johnny Wherever on this one. Off-the-shelf american cars still don’t handle near as well as japanese or european cars.
I suspect the others expect their cars to be driven faster.

I don’t know if this is true anymore. From what I understand, Corvettes and Camaros and Firebirds dominate their classes in SCCA competition. The new GTO is supposed to be very good in the handling department. And the Ford Focus SVT routinely spanks the foreign competition in handling.

And for comparison to foreign ‘supercars’ we can now throw the Ford GT and Viper SRT-10 into the ring. And they stand up very well.

[mangeorge]

I said off the shelf.

[Blown_Injected]

And there you have the difference. Making comparisons that are a joke. A 911 vs. a T-Bird :rolleyes:

How about a 911 and a Viper or a Vette.

[BrianS]

I’ve owned a couple of American cars, from both Ford and GM.

I will never, EVER, purchase another car from the “Big Three” Amercain automakers.

In my experience, if you look closely at American cars, you get the impression that the workers just don’t give a shit; from the misaligned interior bits to the orange peel paint.

In the last year, my 2002 Grand Am has needed new ball joints, the vinyl on the doors has bubbled and peeled away from the panel, and the heater core self destructed.

That’s with religious maintainence and very reasonable driving habits.

My next car will be Japanese, or if I can afford it, German.

[Blown_Injected]

I am EXTREMELY hard on vehicles, my limited experience with Japanese cars has been that they do not hold up under heavy/fleet/commercial type use

[mangeorge]

*Originally posted by BrianS *
**I’ve owned a couple of American cars, from both Ford and GM.

I will never, EVER, purchase another car from the “Big Three” Amercain automakers.

In my experience, if you look closely at American cars, you get the impression that the workers just don’t give a shit; from the misaligned interior bits to the orange peel paint.

In the last year, my 2002 Grand Am has needed new ball joints, the vinyl on the doors has bubbled and peeled away from the panel, and the heater core self destructed.

That’s with religious maintainence and very reasonable driving habits.

My next car will be Japanese, or if I can afford it, German. **

While I agree with your assessment of american cars, the responsibility for lack of quality always lies with management. Even in “strong union” industries.

[Tristan]

According to everything I’ve read (a lot!) on Japanese Import cars, the biggest reason we don’t see things like Skylines, Sylvias, and the like is primarily emissions.

There’s also the belief that they (being the Japanese manufacturers of said cars) won’t have a buying audience outside of fanancially secure Import Tuners. Which is a lie… after the initial bias eases, I think Skylines would sell well.

I’ve driven and worked on (meaning done basic fixing) on an American Van, a Swedish Wagon and 2 JApanese cars.

I’m still strong on the JApanese, although the other cars had more room to work on the engines… heheheh

[Tristan]

BTW, by emissions, I mean that most of the JApanese cars aren’t set up to pass the California Emissions law (most difficult in the US, possibly most difficult in the world). Hence, the additional work to make a boatload of cars pass Smog just isn’t cost effective.

Stupid smog laws.

[mangeorge]

Stupid smog laws???
You should’ve been in the LA basin 20-30 years ago.
GAHH!!!

[Tristan]

That’s what I mean. Smog laws for LA should be exceedingly strict. Same for my home… however, it should be evenly applied. Same laws for everything on the road. Why should I be denied my glorious Skyline GTR because it’s a sliver more polluting (although it would be legal in pretty much every other state) while Joe Sixpack in his 65 El Camino can roar about spouting black clouds of smoke?

Frustrating.

[Palewriter]

Well, I’ve owned cars of all makes and stripes. Swedish, German, English, Italian, American. For a long time, I was a Detroit buff. My last car was a Lincoln Mk VIII, which I dearly loved, although the cost of any repair work was ludicrous. How about $600 for a new headlight? $500 for a new rear-view mirror? When they wanted $1,600 to fix the front suspension, I said “uncle”.

In any case, I’ve long held to three principles: lots of metal, a V8 engine, US-made. Imagine my surprise when I test drove a Hyundai Sonata. Quiet as a Rolls. Smooth as a baby’s ass. Lots of extra doodads. A 10-year bumper-to-bumper warranty. Hm.

Let’s just say that I abandoned all my principles and bought the Sonata. I must say I really like it. For the price of a new Infiniti, I could’ve bought two of them and had cash over. It’s ridiculous. My wife (who has a very nice Lincoln) likes driving my car more than her own.

So, yeah…happy with my Hyundai. Who’da thunk it?

• PW

[BrianS]

It’s funny, Palewriter, but the Koreans seemed to have passed Detroit in quality. They’re quickly closing the gap on the Japanese as well.

Anyone who has ever driven (or ridden in) a mid-80’s Pontiac LeMans should find that disturbing.

[mouthbreather]

Maybe it’s a by-product of driving 2 1980s GM cars ('83 Skylark and '86 Celebrity) as my first two cars during my poor student days – but holy crappola…I don’t ever plan on buying American.