I don’t know, the years of barbarity with planets going back to coal and oil, is independence from a central power worth it?, perhaps a more democratic and less monolithic “Empire” would be best?, in that avenue the best empire would Trek’s United Federation of Planets, but since it was made to order to be “ideal” i think i like Sten’s Empire and other more realistic empires, so if you go for “best” in the sense of Good to live in, the UFP wins hands down, but if you like to read about interesting (in the chinese curse sense) times you’ll do better with the Eternal Emperor, the Barrayaran Imperium, and other more flawed entities.
ETA: Frodo (A big fan of empires)*
Do not know why since i am very fond of democracy, in Argentina it is often said that everyone has a little “Enano Fascista” (Fascist Dwarf) inside and it pops out every now and then to embarrass you, so perhaps empires are my concession to my inner wingnut, i can help it by i love the Roman Empire for example, and i still mourn the death of Alexander (I was 8 when i read that, didnt know how his story ended, was shocked and sad for a while).
To me? Absolutely. Coal and oil can be rebuilt from–eventually they’d work their way back to Atomics and FTL.
On the other hand, freedom from the pre-Foundation Empire would have been well near impossible and freedom from the Terrible Psychic Overlords of the nightmarish Second Empire would have been impossible (talk about thought police and mind control!).
And it’s still pretty ghastly for all that.
There’s no money (see a bunch of Next Gen episodes), in a culture that still allows crushing poverty and still has a need-driven economy (the transporters/duplicators require dilithium which can’t be replicated–so there’s a scarecity of supply.) So they’re on the verge of some sort of terrible economic collapse the likes of which are unimaginable.
There is moral corruption and cowardice of the highest order (see the Prime Directive–while it’s good to not interfere with a developing culture, to not give them medicines to cure disease is reprehensible–it’s not a bad law if it was drafted more carefully, but as draconian as it was in theory (and poorly enforced as it was in practice) it’s impossible to defend as anything beyond selfishness and cowardice)
There’s psychic ‘thought police’ (see any number of episodes where Troi decides to just poke into some random crew member’s mind. Just 'cause. No warrant, no “reasonable suspicion”, just 'cause she felt like it)
And on a similar note, the worst part of an empire is that once it starts to crumble, it takes everyone else with it. In the 1000 year era of freedom between empires in Asimov, if one planet’s economy collapses, no biggie–that planet and maybe a few trading partners collapse. When the First Empire falls, it takes EVERY other planet with it. None survive (except Trantor and the Second Foundation) intact.
I agree with you about the nightmare of a 2d foundation empire, I didnt know about extreme poverty and such things in the Federation but with a show so lacking in continuity as Trek it is to be expected.
Perhaps better “empire” to live in would be Bank’s culture?
Anyway some form of higher political organization would be needed, dont you think? to, as i read on some obscure political publication once, "provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty. "
Frodo (big fan of constitutions).
Whilst I’d agree with you 100% that that’s the place I’d choose to live if I could, does it really qualify as an empire? It’s more a high tech anarchist society.
“An empire (from the Latin “imperium”, denoting military command within the ancient Roman government) is a state that extends dominion over populations distinct culturally and ethnically from the culture/ethnicity at the center of power. Scholars still debate about what exactly constitutes an empire, and other definitions may emphasize economic or political factors.” Wikipedia
If you accept or admit that the Minds are indeed in charge, the Culture could be an empire and I’m sure I would be happy there.
(currently rereading Excession for the fourth time, I must admit)
I’m fine with that definition except for the dominion bit. The Culture is anti-hegemonist and parts of it split off frequently with no problems, so claiming it has dominion over anyone is a bit tenuous. Sure, the Minds are in charge (someone has to be) but the Culture has no one authority or ruler - even the Interesting Times Gang is only nominally in charge because it runs Special Circumstances and therefore has the biggest clout. But anyone can do what they want including leave the Culture at will; this doesn’t really gel with the notion of Empire where there is clear authority and people are ruled.
I accept I’m maybe being overly pedantic with the semantics.
I also accept that these are the stated conditions of the Culture as generally accepted, but do you not think that giving people the opportunity for anything they desire does in fact influence them? Sure, there is not much of the stick ivolved, but there is very much a carrot being wielded.
Well, if we’re talking about near-galaxy-spanning political entities, hell yes, I’d live in the United Federation of Planets! It’s essentially the U.S. writ large (hardly surprising, considering its American TV origins), with a constitutional democracy, a market economy (inconsistent as to whether or not there’s money - some episodes say no, others suggest yes), civil rights, a military subordinate to civilian authority, the rule of law, a free press, freedom of religion, a heterogeneous population, a meritocracy, widespread prosperity, etc. But it’s no empire.
I would say the Civilization of the Galactic Patrol in the E.E. “Doc” Smith universe of the Lensman series.
It is well and honestly run with an incorruptible police force keeping it honest. It grew steadily and eventually destroyed a 2 billion year old empire of evil that spanned Galaxies.
The weapons are beyond extraordinary and Lensman cannot be lied to. It would be a great place to live for honest citizens. They had a great health care system and personal space vehicles were not uncommon.
I would argue that the UFP and the Culture are not Galactic Empires but trade federations, like Pournelle’s Polesotechnic League. Empires are all about dominion, ruling, collecting taxes, etc., whatever the will of the subject peoples. Trade federations don’t seek to control other star systems, they just want to establish friendly relations with them and trade with them, and are happy to leave them alone so long as they don’t pose a threat. They typically have well-developed space fleets because there are always groups like the Klingons, the Kzinti and the Idirans who will roll right over you if you don’t stop 'em.
I like trade federations better because they aren’t so fascist as empires. Also, I think trade federations make better sources for stories than empires. Empires are always about dominion and conflict, trade federations offer the possibility of conflict (see: Klingons, Kzinti) but also all sorts of other relationships with other sentient species.
