Looking over the Celtic gods, I note that Taranis seems pretty similar to Eastern European thunder gods who carry a club/mallet. The Celts also believed in the sacred nature of trees, which we see throughout Asia.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tengriism#Cosmology
I’ll vote East - Danube - though I admit that I don’t know anything about Northwestern African gods
There are very strong similarities between the old Irish Druid religion and the ancient Hindu religion. :eek:
There are very few in Ireland. The name of the river Liffey (Life) may be pre-Celtic.
Here is what we know about the language of the Bronze Age inhabitants of Ireland:
The phase of a common Italo-Celtic had to have existed, but I think it unlikely to have persisted for thousands of years. A few hundred is more likely. So, moving back from the Italo-Celtic split to the Western Indo-European split, that would put it around 1500 BC, give or take a few hundred years. 2000 BC would not surprise me, but 3500 BC is way too early.
If you’re going to argue based on a timeline, the natural rebuttal to that argument is going to be the validity of the timeline. Since we don’t have any direct evidence before the eighth century BC, at which point the language families had already diverged, it’s all a weak argument from there, in either direction, but 3500 BC to 750 BC is the same distance from 750 BC to 2000, i.e. from the earliest Lepontic inscription to Modern Irish. Not that Modern Irish descends from Lepontic, but the point is that’s the entire lifespan of the Celtic languages, and you’re positing an equally long phase in Italo-Celtic, which seems implausible. If you say the same for Western Indo-European, that would put the breakup of Proto-Indo-European at 6250 BC.
Dr. Drake’s dates are much too recent.
You need to come up with a chronology that fits the whole I-E tree. Italo-Celtic certainly separated from Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian well before those latter two separated from each other, so if Italo-Celtic split off 2000 BC, when did Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian separate from each other? Indo-Iranian unity is usually estimated as at least several centuries. When did Indo-Aryan and Iranian split in Dr. Drake’s model? Well after Sanskrit is attested, it would seem. 
I think Ringe’s team is about as credible as any. On page 29 of this slide-show Italo-Celtic is shown splitting off at 3200 BC; Italic and Celtic separate from each other about 2600 BC.
There is much uncertainty of course and Ringe himself (who focuses on linguistic evidence rather than archaeological clues) avoids dating altogether. However I think the path lengths in the diagrams (pages 2, 39) of the link are intended as proportional to quantitative linguistic change.
Are Ringe’s team and I wrong? Dr. Drake, can you cite a credible historical linguist advocating dates anywhere near yours?
I am only querying your 3500 BC date. I proposed ca. 1500 BC, but said I wouldn’t be surprised at 2000 BC. That’s based on moving backward from the known, not reconstructing forward. Ringe’s group’s date for Proto-Celtic looks to be about 2600 BC, which is still nearly 1000 years out from the 3500 BC date you gave. Going with their chart, 3500 BC is the split with Tocharian.
And no, I can’t cite a credible historical linguist with dates. The scholarship I am familiar with has more to do with developments within the Celtic languages, and is more concerned with relative chronology than absolute. Ringe et al. may well be right, but it surprises me.
That’s fascinating. Can you link to some, or link to some paper that documents this? I’m not doubting you. I’d really love to see it.
Most of the texts are very short, but accessible at Lexicon Leponticum and in particular https://www.univie.ac.at/lexlep/wiki/Morphology (can’t seem to link in Chrome). Bear in mind that my “extremely close” is “in comparison with things that are not Italo-Celtic.”
In my earlier reply to your misconception I almost asked if you were conflating the split of Ital-Celtic from the rest of PIE with the split of Celtic and Italic from each other. I didn’t for fear it would seem condescending. Now you’re backtracking on your own earlier claim — that doesn’t bother me — * … and misquoting me*! That does annoy me.
I’ve highlighted and enlarged the relevant sentence. Please tell me what you think it means.
Thanks in advance.
Anticipating a further quibble about the 300-year difference between Tarnow’s estimate and my own (although “error bars” are bigger), let me mention that a simple explanation may resolve even that quibble. I use geographical separation for dates — such dates are more readily inferred from archaeological evidence. It may take a few centuries for a split to produce different languages.
Note the “Italo-Celtic” rather than “Celtic.” Do you just pound the keyboard without trying to understand what you respond to??
I thought all the old religions of Indo-European cultures were related. So similarities were simply inherited from the root religion.
Moderator Note
Dial back the snark. No warning issued, but lets’ remain civil.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
It’s no surprise that Hindu’s ancient religious texts preserve the PIE religion best, so comparing that with Celtic Druidism was natural given the thread topic.
Yet I wonder if Druidism has preserved some PIE religion features better than some other I-E religions. (This mightn’t be surprising: the Greeks borrowed Aphrodite from the Phoenicians; some of the Roman gods were Etruscan, and so on.) Mallory’s old book lists several, almost uncanny similarities between ancient Hinduism and, specifically, Irish Druidism, one of which I mentioned here two years ago:
If you click the link to post-in-thread you will see that I immediately got two responses deprecating the thesis (“sacrificing animals … is common to a lot of religions”). I followed up with more evidence:
… but, unsurprisingly, the equation Epomeduos = Ashvamedha was apparently devoid of merit since no support or retraction followed in that thread.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Of more direct interest to the thread topic would be similarities between ancient Celtic and Italic religions. AFAICT this does not quickly lead to obvious evidence for Italo-Celtic recency. Deity names cognate between Roman and Welsh or Irish include mostly names common to several I-E branches. A possible exception which one source considers to be a cognate pair (but many/most would reject) is “Roman Mars; Irish Morrighan.”
Interestingly, Morrighan is a Goddess of War, contrasting with the male Mars. Celtic Andrasta/Andarta was also a Celtic Goddess of War (or Strength) the above source considers cognate to Hindu’s male Indra.
And I certainly do apologize for losing my temper and becoming snarky. My offense of incivility was clearly hundreds or thousands of times graver than any offence I might have perceived against me. My perverse need to have my statements acknowledged (and wrong-headed criticism retracted) is something that has plagued me most of my life. I wonder if this neurotic compulsion has a code in DSM-IV. :eek:
I am sorry.
Thanks for the apology. Maybe you could just try counting to 100 before posting something.