I know little of these subjects, as mentioned earlier. but I happenned to have skimmed an article about this (I think). It’s called “krav maga”, and basicaly amounts to “throw 'em everything you’ve got and keep it coming” (if the article described it correctly.
You might check out some of Marc Animal MacYoung’s books, like “A Professional’s Guide to Ending Violence Quickly : How Bouncers, Bodyguards, & Other Security Professionals Handle Ugly Situations”. He seems to be of the opinion that most MA are over-rated.
I’ve read some of his books, and seen a couple of his video’s, and this guys pretty scary. One of his specialties seems to be in takeing apart Marial Artists. Some of his video’s and books are used by police accadamies(especially his series on knife fighting). He also has all sorts of books on street fighting, floor fighting, using pool cues and other real world situations. I wish I had his books when I was working as a bouncer.
I meant to post more in my earlier post but I was late for duty.
There are a couple of particular styles that will, on average, generally have a focus towards fighting and in some case self protection too.
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Boxing. Okay, stop laughing. Bottom line boxers have every element that is important in self defense. They are fast, explosive, strong and simple (it don’t get much more basic then a right cross). Furthermore, they practice to hit and get hit. Of course, boxing is not without its drawbacks. They punch with a closed fist. They punch with gloves on. They have a very limited selection of techniques.
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Krav Maga. This is one of the styles that focuses on actual self protection. It is an amalgamated style, i.e. it mixes striking, grappling and weapons. Againg, it is totally vital to examine the specific instructor but the Krav Maga people I know all are very hardcore.
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Kyokushin Karate. Not necessarily focused on self protection, but definitely fight alot.
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Goju-Ryu. Like Kyokushin, focuses on fighting and body conditioning.
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Uechi-Ryu. Another Okinawan style like Goju-Ryu. Hard conditioning, but alot of the schools don’t fight so much. Those that do are a great choice.
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Brazillian Jujutsu. You have to be careful with BJJ schools because it is currently all the craze and hence there are some unethical instructors trying to cash in on the name. However, I have had the pleasure of working with Royce Gracie at a seminar, and there is little doubt that real BJJ is a very good fighting art (not necessarily self protection). What I like about BJJ is simply the way they train. Very intense.
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Muay Thai. Another style you have to be careful of unethical trainers and in some case the real ones. This is not an art for the timid. In fact, real Muay Thai is probably too intense for most anybody. Since it is a kicking boxing style is has all the advantages of boxing, with a wider array of techniques.
Bottom line. Krav Maga is probably the only style that will be relatively consistent from school to school on focusing on self protection principles, but it never hurts to say it: examine the individual instructor! Of course, the principles of self protection is simply a “how” of training. Take any style and train with the right mindset and it really doesn’t matter. You can learn about this mindset from books, or even better by taking a specialized seminar on the subject. Perhaps the best and most available travelling seminar is the Lethal Force Institute run by Massad Ayoob, although the focuses on guns (the principles are the same). You could also read Ayoob’s book on adrenal stress and self protection (The Truth About Self Protection & Stressfire). Another good book is “Real Fighting” by Peyton Quinn (also he runs a great training school in Colorado called Rocky Mountain Combat Applications).
It’s gotta be the martial arts from the 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Oriental Adventures rules supplement.
At high enough experience levels, you can combine fighting styles and thus get 3 attacks per melee round that do 1d10 damage points each. A high-level monk would get 6 attacks per melee round for 5d10 damage each. Try pitting that against the martial striking in Rolemaster or the martial combat maneuvers in Champions/Hero System!
I apologize for the hyperbole. I think anyone that reads the title of the thread gets the point of the question, Damha-san.
Yeah. On “Malcolm in the Middle” Sunday night Malcolm’s girlfriend used an Israeli krav maga armlock to incapacitate Malcolm’s brother, Reese.
Damn! I chose the wrong discipline! Over a year now and I STILL can’t beat Bison on Street Fighter Alpha 3!!!
OK guys, how about some specific recommendations for a specific case?
Case 1: Take, oh I don’t know, a female, age 32, about 5’6", 145 pounds (soon…sigh), basic thin build (small bones). What can someone of her build ever hope to do? I would guess that the best tactics, even after years of practice, would be primarily focused on defense, escape, and avoidance. What art or arts might be best suited to teaching her these three things?
tracer, who would have to pit it against someone who can do 9d6 HTH damage with autofire, armor-piercing or penetrating, and area of effect with his martial arts attacks. That is for a beginning character. No contest, Champions is the best.
Back to the OP. As anthracite says, the MA adopted should fit one’s body type and relative flexibility. How about an optimal MA for a 5’10, 320 lb guy? No sumo, I can’t do splits.
Anthracite:
First, all self protection (for men, women or children) should focus on avoidance, then escape, then “pounding the snot out of your opponent” ™, in that order.
In any real self defense situation the defender is at a tremendous disadvantage at first, so better to never be the defender in the first place (i.e. avoid).
Fighting is a messy affair. Everybody pretty much gets hurt, if not physically then emotionally. Fighting a serious aggressive attacker changes you. I know being stabbed in the back certainly altered my perspective on things. So, if you are in a confrontation you want to escape it asap.
I just wanted to confirm that you are correct, self protection is about avoidance and escape first.
Second. Certainly some martial arts are going to be difficult for some body types to do. You won’t see many small women in sumo. But for the most part regardless of body type you want to find a school that teaches both striking and grappling (and to some degree weapons). Both of these are vital skills for anybody interested in self protection to have regardless of body type. Every technique that is useful to somebody of a small body type is only equally or more useful to somebody bigger. In other words, the techniques that are important for self protection are pretty much the same for everybody. A larger person might have a slightly larger arsenal but the core is the same for everybody. Simple throws and strikes have a certain base effectiveness that simply doesn’t depend on size. This is not the same thing as saying size doesn’t matter, because it does.
Keep in mind that the single most important thing in self defense is your “defensive mindset”. It doesn’t take very advanced techniques to defend yourself. Even simple close fisted punches are okay, if you are willing to accept a lot of pain for yourself in the morning or possibly a broken wrist.
So, what does this all mean? If you are picking a martial arts school you need to pick one that trains as intensely as you can take. For example, my class is pretty intense. Lots of blows being landed and thrown (always to build never to break). I have plenty of women in my class about your size, the thing is they don’t mind taking some shots in order to learn hardcore self defense. Is that you? I don’t know, only you can answer that. But it isn’t about the size of the person.
Capacitor: Same thing for you. It is all about what is in your heart. What can you accept as the price for learning self protection? The main thing is to make sure any school you pick is one you can accept, and teaches both striking and grappling.
Late back to the fray…
I had a coup to quell…
I think some excellent points have been made and I am in agreement with those who would have it that the individual (body and mind), their commitment , training methods etc… are what will eventaully be the decider in a contest between two equally ranked proponents of different styles.
I may have been a little over-zealous in jumping in to enforce the “art of fighting without fighting” viewpoint.
Im not familiar with the Ultimate Fighter contests you mention (other than that which was mentioned on an episode of Friends) …sounds interesting though.
I wonder what people think of the value of more recent styles that pruport to have taken on board the “best of the rest”. Styles such as ChoiKwangDo etc.
Couple of thoughts, Anth. Disclaimer, my knowledge is greatly limited by the few disciplines I have studied.
Wing chun is a style of gung fu that was originally developed by a woman. Deals with the advantage given by relationships, leverage, and reaction instead of power and strength. Also deals with close fighting. A 5’6" woman probably does not want to stay at a distance and trade blows with a (likely) larger assailant. Don’t let anyone kid you. Unless the smaller fighter’s skill level and physical attributes are way greater than the larger fighter’s, size does matter.
Jeet Kune Do (Jun Fan JKD and JKD Concepts - no need to get overly into the distinction here. The instructor matters much more than the name) are largely influenced by wing chun.
A “reality-based” style, such as JKD, krav maga, incorporating scenario training, is essential to develop the awareness required for avoidance. I believe such may not be as readily acquired from a more traditional, structured art practicing kata, for example. Generally the goal in JKD is to cause sufficient pain/injury to gain time to reach safety/help. As others noted, in such a style, you will quickly develop some base level of proficiency, as oppose to other arts where you will not really be functionally proficient for years.
BJJ has good and bad points for a woman. On the good side, a woman needs to know how to defend herself should she be tied up with an assailant. On the other hand, I am not certain why the woman would want to voluntarily tie up with an assailant. And initiating grappling does not seem the smartest way to escape. And submissions can be tough to accomplish against a stronger uncooperative opponent.
I think the best equalizer for a woman is a knife. Any of the filipino martial arts can teach you competence with a blade.
capacitor One of my best friends is a tremendous JKD/FMA instructor, and he left 300# in his rearview mirror many foccacias ago. I also regularly get my butt kicked in BJJ by a guy who is probably just about your size (goes by the name of “Slim”). A big guy is definitely tough to handle when grappling. But I must repeat that I am not a huge advocate of the offensive use of grappling for real life self defense. I assume one of your problems is your wheels. You probably do not have the best endurance. Therefore, you aren’t going to want to stand toe-to-toe and go a series of rounds with someone. You will want to work on something that emphasizes quick, simple strikes, and allows you to use your size and the leverage it gives you to your advantage. Greco-Roman wrestling might be fun. As might judo, JKD, or FMA. TKD would probably not be your best bet!
Hate to sound like a one-trick pony, but if you are serious about the need to protect yourself, a weapon evens the odds tremendously (assuming you know how to use it). Even a tiny little blade can inflict incredible damage, against multiple attackers.
The easiest self defense, however, is to not get yourself in dangerous situations. If you know fights happen in a certain bar, stay away from there. Don’t get drunk/stoned in public, or with people you do not know and trust well. Don’t go places alone, especially at night. Be constantly vigilant of your surroundings, and people around you. Convey an alert attitude. Stride purposefully. If you see troublesome appearing people, cross the street. Wear comfortable clothes/footwear, that you can run in. For many people, it takes a little training in a reality-based MA to really internalize these practices.
Think of the wildlife programs on public TV. Out on the savannah there are predators and prey. And how does the predator selectt his prey? He ges after the weak, the sick, the ones that arenn’t paying attention, the ones who are where they shouldn’t be. Don’t let yourself convey that image. Make the predator seek easier prey.
Anybody know anything about Brazilian “capoeira”? This stuff looks pretty intense-is it actually used to fight?
From what I remember reading in Ninja Hero (a martial arts supplement for the Champions/Hero role-playing game system), capoiera was developed by Brazilian prisoners whose hands were chained together with heavy manacles. They learned to stand on their hands and kick with their legs in the air.
I figure this technique would be absolutely devastating if used by a chimpanzee.
capacitor wrote:
Ah, but Champions normal damage is weaker than AD&D damage. It takes 3d6 of normal damage in Champions to equal 1d6 of damage in AD&D. So your seemingly “mighty” 9d6 attack would translate to a paltry 3d6 attack in AD&D – far less than the 5d10 done by a high-level Oriental Adventures monk.
And “Autofire” and “Armor Piercing” are Power Advantages, not Skills, and so they fall outside the realm of Martial Arts in Champions. So there. 
Anthracite,
You sound like a perfect candidate for aikido. It’s a Japanese martial art that focuses on using an attackers size/momentum/power against himself. I practiced it for about a year (I would really like to get back to it) and it is truly amazing. It is taught (at least at my school) to be non-lethal and non-damaging, but you could easily break someone’s neck or arms if you wished.
Check it out, it’s a really good experience.
One more thing: there is an emphasis on technique rather than power. If I was putting too much muscle into a move, then I was getting it wrong.
By the way, martial arts are pretty much the only place where you get your ass kicked by someone half your size, twice your age, and you thank him for it.
RE: “Also, many people can achieve relatively high rank in certain martial arts, without developing significant ability to defend themselves in a realistic manner. And, IMO, many people who study MA develop a self impression of ability far earlier than they actually develop an equivalent degree of ability.”
From 22 years of extensive MA study, teaching & fighting, along with many a wild bar & street fight over the years and across three continents–most of which I generally did not start–I agree. It’s amazing how many MA practitioners of all styles have no clue about what really goes down in a street fight and instead cling to a dangerous illusion that a crisp Hollywood roundhouse kick is going to kick his opponent’s ass. Tournament fighting is worlds away from the real thing and what you see in the latter–when done right–is brutal beyond words. Strength and speed are key, yes. But even more so are brutality and a complete lack of conscience. (Along with good technique, of course.) What I haven’t seen anyone here mention is that good street fighters are rare these days–maybe not 50 years ago but, today, rare. Plenty of guys talk lots of shit, but you get them messed up and most wilt like pansies. (If you want to blame anything for this sad social phenomenon, blame the handgun.) Too many people are looking for the perfect style, when none really exist. I will say, however, that some styles–as practiced–are rather weak. Tae kwon-do, for instance, is weak in street fighting, IMHO. On the other hand, how many people really NEED to be good street fighters? Just one really bad fight–even as an observant–and the sensible man will take up pacifism for life. A last observation: the downside to frequent fighting, even when you regularly kick ass, is that it changes you and is hard on relationships.
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First of all, thanks for all the advice, fellow students.
Now to tracer, according to Ninja Hero, one can supplement martial arts skills with powers to simulate the super martial arts techniques. No proficiency slots needed. As I mentioned before, in Champions you can make a Wong Fei-Hong-type as a beginning character. You need a 20-level monk in D&D to get all the goodies you mentioned.