Which muscles, when developed, would make one punch harder?

[ultrafilter]

@Scylla

Do you have a cite for one type of slow twitch and two types of fast twitch muscles?

From here:

Motor units are classified into three primary categories. The first, and smallest, motor unit is the slow-twitch (S) variety that produces small amounts of force for long periods of time. Think of curling a pencil.

The second type is the fast-twitch, fatigue resistant (FR) that produces moderate amounts of force for moderate amounts of time. Think of curling a dumbbell for 100 reps. The third type is the fast-twitch, fast fatigable (FF) that produces large amounts of force for brief periods of time. Think of curling a dumbbell that represents your 1-3 repetition maximum (RM).

Importantly, each motor unit type can’t be perfectly categorized. Indeed, there are hybrids of each motor unit type just like there are hybrid muscle fiber types (precisely the reason why there’s hybrid motor units).

And based on the research by Denny-Brown, Pennybacker, and Henneman, we seem to know that there’s an orderly recruitment of motor units. In other words, if you lift a small load, your S motor units will fire first; and if you lift a maximal load, your S motor units will fire first followed by the FR and FF motor units. This is known as the Size Principle.

@Scylla

I’ve only seen fast and slow twitch mentioned in the health literature. But, it’s not what like what you’ve said, adding a third slower twitch muscle changes what I said.

I missed the part about working out with acceleration. Yeah, that does train the fast-twitch fibers, although I have my doubts about how well that trains the fast fatigable fibers.

The same author I quoted earlier has this to say on how he trains MMA fighters:

For those who are new to training for MMA, or for those with low levels of maximal strength, I’ll first build up the three powerlifts. The most important powerlift for a MMA fighter is the deadlift. The first priority will be to develop a 2.5x bodyweight deadlift.

…

As counterintuitive as it might seem, my purpose in building up a novice’s maximal strength is to help him get faster. Speed is most important in mixed martial arts. I don’t care how strong you are, if your opponent can punch you quicker than you can punch him, he’s going to beat you. And if you build up your maximal strength, you’ll get faster, but this is only true for beginners.

@Scylla

If what you said was correct, than you could place a boxing glove on the end of a hydraulic jack that moved very slowly and it would throw devastating punches. But, because it moves so slowly it doesn’t impact with force and it just slowly pushes whatever it strikes.

To punch hard, you need what boxers call “snap.” Hitting an object with “snap” means you transfer the power of your punch to the object without moving it (much).

Without snap, you are just pushing.

What you’re talking about is what physicists call impact force. The ability to generate impact force comes from the ability to accelerate, and that’s pretty much the definition of force production (recall that force is the product of mass and acceleration). The hydraulic press isn’t generating much in the way of impact force because it’s not accelerating itself at any significant rate.

[Scylla]

@ultrafilter

From here:

Umm, that guy seems like he knows what he’s talking about, and I’m sure you’re right. On general principle though, I don’t know if I can accept a cite from “Testosterone Nation.”

:dubious:

I missed the part about working out with acceleration. Yeah, that does train the fast-twitch fibers, although I have my doubts about how well that trains the fast fatigable fibers.

I’m so fast I could reach down your throat, tear your heart out and show it to you before you could react. Actually, it’s pretty standard stuff.

What you’re talking about is what physicists call impact force. The ability to generate impact force comes from the ability to accelerate, and that’s pretty much the definition of force production (recall that force is the product of mass and acceleration). The hydraulic press isn’t generating much in the way of impact force because it’s not accelerating itself at any significant rate.

Physicists and wikipedia can call it “impact force” when they are playing with inclined planes and such. If we’re talking about hitting things with a punch, I think the boxing term is the correct one. I’m staying with “snap.”

Again though, what you’re saying doesn’t alter what I’ve said. One can be strong as hell and not able to punch worth a shit. “musclebound.”

[Sleel]

@dnooman

I’m guessing lats, tri’s, and pecs. Different punches would be better served by different muscles being developed I’m sure. Would one punch harder if said muscles were stronger, or is that more of a combination of strength and technique?

Long-time martial artist checking in. All of your muscles are important. Working out with weights will improve your overall strength and fitness, which are also important, but it isn’t any substitute for punching practice. I’ve hit people hard enough in training to literally lift them off their feet. When you’ve done it just right, a punch can just about knock the wind out of you even through a thick pad and will definitely affect your balance. Doing it right depends mostly on technique, not muscle.

No matter what your system of fighting, something that’s close to universal is that you punch with your whole body. In my first dojo, the focus on the whole was considered to be so important that my teacher said that you should feel like you are punching with your little toe. He was only exaggerating slightly for effect. Whether you’re training in boxing or Wing Chun, pretty much any decent teacher will tell you to be aware of how all of your body movements affect your punch and will stress body alignment at the time of impact.

Bruce Lee did some weight training too. He focused on complex non-isolation movements. (Warm Marble). He thought that technique was more important than physique, but that if you’re going to train, you train everything, and if you’re going to hit someone, you hit with everything. You can see the results of this philosophy.