I can fill in the other aspects of heaven and hell as long as I keep the “heaven = dishonest laughter” and “hell = honest laughter”? I’ll play along.
I imagine a hell where people laugh honestly while they are being flayed alive and ghost pepper sauce is poured into the wounds, and a heaven where people laugh dishonestly while their every desire is answered.
Now explain to me again why you would prefer hell over heaven, AlexPontik.
Thin and seedy?
Let me first apologize, if this feels up to now feels like a waste of your time.
I tried to write below what I mean the following way, which may be closer to your perspective, view, experience of life.
I think I can write the following about you, being aware I have never met you, and also being aware of the fact that I don’t have any supernatural powers, without me being untrue, dishonest, unjust to you. But, you will need to judge this in the end yourself, I think.
Also, I think I need to warn you from the beginning, be careful , the below argument may seem “child-ish” to you while you are reading it, it still seems childish to me also now that I have read it again and again , but am I being untrue, dishonest, unjust to you, and keep wasting your time?
Because, this isn’t what I am looking for.
So, here it goes.
In your life you have to make choices, decisions, judgments before you act. These range from those which are instinctual, up to those which are clearly within your control.
How you make these choices, decisions, judgments I don’t know, I know in the end you want to have a good life, good time, fun.
What is fun for you in life at any given time, you don’t know. You will need to experience something first, and then judge if it is fun for you, in your life.
Your emotions in life, guide you to have fun, but they don’t guarantee in any way that you will have fun.
You will need in some way, to use your judgement to guide your emotions, to actually have fun.
Regarding how in the end this happens, I can only write the following.
You need patience in life in order to have fun. Why? You also need patience in life in order to find this out. Why? Because you find this out, in a funny way.
Sometimes it is more fun than you can handle at that moment in your life, sometimes it is less fun than you can handle at that moment in your life, but, when you are having a good time, it is just the right amount of fun.
And to find those times, it comes back to the beginning, you need patience in life in order to have fun, and if you pass quickly through this part of the email, you are not being patient.
When you are patient in your life, you are allowing your body to return to its natural state, condition, order, where you have freedom to choose in your life, what to do next. When you are not, you end up without freedom to choose in your life, and your body chooses for you.
Then, you need to be patient to decide among the choices you can think of.
Then, you need to be patient to judge among the decisions you have made.
If you were patient enough up to here, you can make a final judgement and proceed to act.
If you weren’t, it comes back to the beginning, you need patience in life in order to have fun.
How is this of any practical use, I think you will ask here?
Having written about you, I think enough up to here, now what I think I need to write is this.
Assume everyone in society is having fun at a certain moment in time. Let’s call all these moments in time, “the good times”.
Assume problems get out of hand in society at a certain moment in time. Let’s call all these moments in time, “the bad times“.
We generally want the “the good times”, and try to avoid “the bad times”, I think I need to write this down also, as however obvious it looks to me, I don’t how obvious it is to the rest of you.
So I think I need to write the following:
Let’s talk about the good times: assume everyone in society is having fun at a certain moment in time.
Are problems out of hand at that same moment in time. No. Why? Because everyone in society is hav-ing fun at that moment in time. If problems got out of hand at that same moment in time, someone would need to deal with the problems getting out of hand, and wouldn’t be having fun from that mo-ment, onward. Why? Because that someone would think problems are getting out of hand in the fu-ture, and everyone else in society is having fun in that moment. I think I need to write this down also, as however obvious it looks to me, I don’t know how obvious it is to the rest of you.
Let’s talk about the bad times: assume bad times may come in the future. Allow me to blame some-one else for now. Regarding you, Look using the following perspective. Look at everything , then no-tice, within everything, it is people, and it is the rest (rest = everything-people), and in the end ask “Did I forget anything I shouldn’t forget?”
It is in the end, people’s fault: People do things for one another during their life. The sim-plest way to describe interaction is “I do this for you, you do this for me”, and the results of it is what you see around you, which people make now or made in the past.
a. When interaction between people works: I do this for you, you do this for me.
b. When interaction between people fails: Either me or you don’t do their part.
c. What does that mean for you: I do this for you, you do this for me.
2. It is in the end, fate, it is an unexpected event: People can’t guess the side a coin they tossed in the air, ends up facing them. The simplest way to describe luck is “fate”, and the re-sults of it is what you see around you.
a. When fate works: Fate works, when it is up to the rest to decide if it will work (rest = everything – people). Why? Because for “the good times” fate simply works, and for “the bad times” fate simply doesn’t work as you wanted, it is an unexpected event.
b. When fate fails: Fate fails, when people decide when fate should work. Why? Be-cause fate works, when it is up to the rest to decide if it will work.
c. What does that mean for you: Fate works, when it is up to the rest to decide if it will work (rest = everything – people).
3. It is in the end, due to the amount of changes happening around: People can’t handle too many changes. The simplest way to describe “the amount of changes happening around” is “everyday life”.
a. When everyday life works: Life works, when life seems to work on the way, and up until the end. Why? Because for “the good times” life simply works, and for “the bad times” life simply doesn’t work as you wanted, it is an unexpected event.
b. When everyday life doesn’t work: Life doesn’t work, when life simply doesn’t work as you wanted, it is an unexpected event.
c. What does that mean for you: Life works, when life seems to work on the way, and up until the end. And in the end, you want to have fun, and on the way to the end you want to have fun. Will you have fun? You will find out next.
4. It is in the end, my fault. Since I asked you before to allow me to blame someone else, and I blamed the rest, let me also blame myself now, so that I have blamed everything, and I am not forgetting something: 1.I am no one, I have fun just like that, and end having fun just like that, cause mama in the end puts order. 2.What happens next for me, happens next, it doesn’t happen now . 3.Within everything, it is me, it is the rest, and when you have fun with the rest , then it is something else.
a. When I work: I work when I am having fun, because at that time I am having fun.
b. When I don’t work: I don’t work when I am tired, because at that time I am tired.
c. What does that mean for you:
i. To me, girls decide where words end, and actions fol-low. Why? Cause mama in the end puts order.
ii. To me, it is girls in the rest of nature throughout history that seem to decide who to chose in life; No one in the rest of nature seems to decide what girls chose, cause mama in the end puts order.
iii. To me, if anyone in the rest of nature decides what girls chose, girls should not choose that one, but should point patiently that one so the rest of society, sees openly that one. Cause mama in the end puts order. Why?
Because then, that one person’s family has to deal with that one person, even if that one person’s family has to do “what no one shouldn’t do” to the person. Why?
Because no ones may comes from nowhere , do to this person’s family, what “no one shouldn’t do” until they convert that person to, no one, and he/she behaves within limits, where it is fun for the rest of us. Why?
Because nothing in society can protect or prepare this person’s family, from no ones who may come from nowhere. It is only just this warning written down here, which can allow people to correct their behavior before it is too late. Too late for what? Too late to ask any more questions, because this time, it is time to act, so that we have a “good time” and not a “bad time” in our lives.
I think I need to write all these down also, as however obvious it looks to me, I don’t know how obvious it is to the rest of you. The rest of you seem to get offended easily, so let me offend you up to the point where is it safe for you to be offended. Why? Because after this point it is not safe for the rest of you to be offended, after this point “No ones deal with the ones who get offended, so that society is fun in the end”.
And if you are patient to read and think again what has been writ-ten here, you may think you found a different way than the one writ-ten down here. You Haven’t. With patience you will find this out your-self, without patience, it will find you whether you like it or not. Why? Because to have patience, one requires to have patience, and after that you can pretty much tell whatever you want to yourself. Remem-ber, if you don't have patience, consequences happen, and you can run from consequences, but you cannot hide. And, it seems to me, that this text sooner or later will have consequences to the rest of so-ciety, and there is nothing that I can do about it, but write it down.
In the above text, by definition the following words provide answers to the following questions in life:
Think: If I calm down from emotion, what conclusion do I reach?
Feel: which emotions come to me?
Experience: within everything, it is me, it is the rest (rest = everything-me). What is my connection with everything, this time?
Family: Who are the people closer to another person?
Kind regards,
Alex
I think this has something to do with gender.
I’ve been known to write things that pertain to gender.
I’ve been accused of writing rather dense passages about gender that folks don’t understand.
Please accept this here pinball crown. I know when I’m defeated.
Dude,
Line breaks are your friend.
Truly.
Even if someone wanted to read everything you wrote in your last post, the fact that it’s all one wall of text with no spaces at all separating dozens of lines make it exceedingly difficult to read.
Try putting in some spaces in between your paragraphs.
Like so.
More direct response to questions, less essay please.
So much for clear and concise. shrug
En devour? I’ll show you en devour.
I think maybe I have it figured out–he is asking which is Paradise to you–the world where everybody has fun, or the world where everybody wangs chung.
Alex, have you ever heard of the concept “Not even wrong?”
Or someone else’s posts between your paragraphs.
OK I’m imagining a hell where all of the demons who torment me are laughing honestly at my plight, and a heaven where the world is so blissful that there is no need to laugh. I’ll choose the latter. Is this what you had in mind, OP?
OK.
I copied our discussion host’s wall of text into Word and inserted paragraph breaks where I thought they belonged. (This is frankly more difficult than I expected, because AP’s thought progression, while it’s definitely present, is prone to abrupt leaps and hiccups.) Then I tried my best to paraphrase according to AP’s intent, where I could discern it. After this, my process would have been to create a summary outline using terms more commonly understood and accepted as the intended signifiers.
I failed at that process, because I could not successfully paraphrase the intent.
Alex starts out vaguely Buddhistic, but insists that desire is the root of enjoyment (rather than desire and attachment leading to suffering), and lack of enjoyment is merely the lack of a deliberate analysis of what is found, in each individual, to be enjoyable.
Deliberate calm analysis, we are told, must be applied to gain full enjoyment of life (“Patience”, as I understand Alex to be using the term.) Unfortunately, we are also guided through a sequence, sort of like the stages of grief or the steps of recovery, wherein we are instructed that:[ol][li]All human contact is transactional in nature,[]Randomness exists,[]Change happens/things are impermanent (harkening back to the Buddha) andMama! in a lot of words.[/ol][/li]This all supposedly leads us to a conclusion that we should be Patient and this is important to society (as explicated in a middle section about the importance of enjoyment to societal “good times” and “bad times”.)
AlexPontik, you really seem to yearn for a meeting of minds, but your presentation requires all of us to move substantially closer from where we are in order to make that meeting, and -I cannot stress this enough- We Can’t Tell Where The Heaven-or-Hell You Are.
I think it would help you and we, your correspondents, if you’d just carefully rephrase your opening question, and then respond to simple questions of clarification, as offered by Left Hand of Dorkness, QuickSilver and others, with a genuine attempt to clarify, ONE AT A TIME, each point.
Failing that, I don’t think we can help you refine your thoughts. All we can do to help you is to tell you unequivocally that your thesis is neither profound nor developable into a working philosophy.
(Sorry to eveyone else for this attempt to suck all of the humor out of the thread. Please carry on.)
AlexPontik, it looks like you’re trying to write one post that asks every question you’ve ever had about life, death, society, rationality, irrationality, rules, instinct, and mama. So here’s a bit of advice.
Everything doesn’t get answered all at once. Some things never get answered at all. Please take just one thing you want to discuss with us. One topic, one observation you’ve made, one question you have - just one - and try to pose it as succinctly as possible.
Mayyyyybe
I worked in college as a writing tutor. THe vast majority of college kids I worked with were lovely: they were struggling to organize their thoughts into sophisticated written form, and they’d listen respectfully to my feedback. They wouldn’t always agree, which was fine, but when they didn’t, we could come to an understanding, because neither they nor I was there to win an argument. I’d go to a different writing tutor for my own papers, because I wanted to get the same sort of feedback I was giving other folks.
But once in awhile I’d get an exception. Someone would come to me with some self-important gibberish, which they clearly thought was the next Jack Kerouac novel (and they’d all read Jack Kerouac). They weren’t there voluntarily, their professor had instructed them to go see a tutor. And they’d sneer at me the whole time I was struggling my way through their paper–clearly I was a lesser intellect incapable of appreciating their brilliance. My feedback, however gently offered, would be rejected outright: they MEANT to write the way they wrote, it was their STYLE.
I always suspected a perverse form of child abuse: I suspected their parents told them that they were geniuses and never gave them constructive feedback and always took their side in any dispute between them and a teacher. As a result they grew up thinking they were intellectual behemoths, never having faced a single challenge. Like a basketball player who’d never played against another player, their skills were less than fully developed.
I’ve had very similar experiences although perhaps not as much with respect to writing. When I was working in a computer science lab or teaching undergraduate computer science classes, students would ask me for feedback on coding, and most were very receptive of my suggestions. But every now and then you get the master hacker/coder who would start to tell me why I’m clearly the worst programmer in history. It is a bit of Dunning-Kruger I think. When your skill level gets just past novice in something, you don’t quite realize yet just how much you don’t know. I often tell people that I basically know nothing. Compared to the vast repository of all knowledge, what I know is a microscopic dot on top of a microscopic dot in the vast void of space (with apologies to Douglas Adams). You have to get to a very narrow field before my knowledge becomes anything that could be considered advanced (modelling and simulation of processes using artificial intelligence maybe? And even then maybe not?).
I really like working in a medical lab now because: 1) the work is really compelling (saving lives), and 2) the medical students don’t know a damn thing about AI or programming. 
It is so very peaceful.
You focused on the same thing I did, Beck. But I’d really like to know this: What was Alex’s point in directing his reply post to “Gentlemen”?
I’m pretty sure English is not Alex’s primary language, but even so it strikes me as very odd to direct a post to males.
The “Gentlemen” fit in with the old-fashioned feel of his Wall O’ Text. Kind of an 1800’s elite intelligentsia feel. Back when people had nothing else to do at night but light an oil lamp, pick up their quill pen and a stack of parchment… there was no need for brevity or clarity. You were writing to keep busy.
:), thank you for you kind comments…let me try another way…
if you lack patience, skip this thread, there is nothing for you here.
if you have patience, read the below (21 pages, but I added pictures to make it more fun for you).
Let’s talk about everything! So that we know what on earth we are talking about!