And for a third post, you have to remember that if you beat someone up who you might see in the future, there’s a chance he’ll have friends the second time around.
Llapgoch is the way.
Huge UFC fan here with zero real-life experience.
I vote for krav maga, though I’ve never seen it in the UFC. Be warned, though, that krav maga focuses on armed combat. As in, pick up whatever can be used as a weapon and use it. This gives you the best chance of survival.
Assuming you cannot find a krav maga school in your area, go with boxing. Your numerous points are all valid:
Now that I have the guy in a submission hold, what do I do?
What if there is more than one attacker?
Boxing will address both of these. You never want to go to ground against multiple attackers. You also never want to get to the stalemate point of a submission fight.
Boxing will teach you to strike quickly and effectively, and will go the longest way toward discouraging further attacks. Once you punch a guy’s nose in, others will think twice. A fancy karate move may incite others to “test” your abilities.
Also, even though boxing is exclesively one on one, you stay upright and mobile, which (I assume) would translate well to fighting off multiple attackers. Also, I think (wild guess) that the basic principles are pretty straightforward, and 90% of your effort will be in honing those already-understood principles. Thus giving more “bang for your buck”, or bang for your effort, as it were.
Again, I vote krav maga, but short of that consider boxing.
I know a guy who is a good wrestler, another guy who is fairly advanced in teng-su-do (no idea how to spell it) and a guy who was a golden glove 12 years ago.
The golden glove guy is the one I’d least want to fight, and also the one I’d most want to back me up in a fight.
Sometimes. Boxer must be good and karate guy must be a point fighter for this scenario.
Never. Ever. Have you ever seen a boxer off balance? Not even Butterbean.
Ridiculous. Both styles are too traditional to make this comment. Depends on which fighter gets into the most legitimate fights.
**
Correct. Unless monkey boy happens to thrive on full-contact fights. Then it’s a toss-up.
Please explain to me what a “pure” karate move is. A kick is a kick. A punch is a punch.
REGARDING THE OP
I’ve studied Jeet Kune Do for three years, Kali for three years, Karate for one, Aikido for one, Wing Chun for one, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for three, and kickboxing for three. I have competed in amateur MMA competitions. This is my advice:
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Read books by Marc Young and Peyton Quinn.
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Find a sport that will let you spar full contact. (Not immediately, of course, but after a four or five months.) This is the reason why boxing, kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, catch wrestling, judo, etc., are so successful in MMA. Only by learning to control yourself during an adrenalin rush do you have any hope in hell of using something you’ve learned. The gentleness of traditional martial arts doesn’t cut it.
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Mentally prepare yourself for having to gouge someone’s eyes or tearing someone’s groin.
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See number one.
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Find something you enjoy. More than anything. Just the confidence this will give you will be as useful as anything you actually learn.
I taught beginners Okinawan Shorin Ryu while studying for my black belt in this ancient form of Karate. It is still a relatively pure art of self defense. It is comprised mainly of blocks and counter strikes designed to disable your attacker while protecting yourself.
The beginners learn moves that are simple and effective. I realized early on just how effective. I had been out one night shooting pool (I know…rule #1 avoid) anyway the local drunk badass decided he was gonna kick my ass. He came at me with a series of blows, jabs, etc. including a couple of kicks to the groin.
I blocked every single strike he made and did NOT counter. He stopped and backed up…shook his head and said “fuck it”. I guess he realized what COULD have happened.
I’ve got a serious fucking kick to the knee and shin that’ll take the meat off clean to the bone w/ a reverse elbow to the nose or any number of combinations.
The point is, it wasn’t necessary. My cousin boxes professionally. He couldn’t take me out, but then I didn’t hurt him either. BUT we agreed that I wouldn’t use any kicks.
Like I said…It is a defensive art.
SEMPER FI
PS I especially like the coordinated moves used to disarm or escape assailants. (ie: knife hand blocks…handgun diversions…how to break various choke holds) Most are relatively simple and just require practice and the element of surprise.
Actually, I’ll reiterate that finding an instructor and a dojo that you like and matches you is probably far more important that what style might theoretically be better for you.
I myself did american kenpo for 4 years. It’s a style that suited me, my body, my muscles, thought process etc very well. A hard style such as Tae kwon do just didn’t seem to be a good fit for me. YMMV. Pick the style and the instructor that fit you.
I had a great instructor. Went to college and the kenpo guy was a complete fucktard and his teaching philosophy clashed with my personality about as much as humanly possible. nearly 25 years later and I still think he was a complete ass. I went back to my original instructor. anyhoo, the point is to get a good instructor, classmates and the rest will come.
To flysyndrome: The key difference between all traditional martial arts and a street attack is that martial arts has rules and referees (even the UFC), and a street attack doesn’t. You don’t say how old your daughters are, but it might be worth getting them some training to look out for themselves. Dad won’t always be around when there’s trouble. Also, what might work for you as a large athletic male in, say, a bar fight may not be what your daughters need to do to escape a sexual predator.
Beware of anybody who claims to have a secret super self-defense method. (Maybe llapgoch is the exception.) There are only so many ways people can push/punch/kick each other. For practical, non-sports oriented self-defense techniques, which include avoidance and de-escalation as well as fighting, the model mugging/impact programs are worth a look, especially for women (but I don’t mean any disrespect to anybody else’s approach).
http://www.prepareinc.com
http://www.dcimpact.org
http://www.rmcat.com
Imagine, I haven’t been on these boards for nearly a year and when I come back here is a topic just up my alley.
The reality of self defense is that the solution to the problem is not a primarily a technical one. What this means is that the particular techniques that are needed to be able to defend oneself are already imbedded within you, the animal part of you. Learning more technique is great but ultimately futile and useless, since they will be lost to you under adrenal stress, if it is not learned in a manner that ingrains it into the part of yourself that is going to be doing the fighting, againt that part which will not be paralyzed by the effects of adrenal stress. You are much much better off preparing your mind for the role of defending yourself than trying to learn techniques that won’t be there when you need them both. That being said, in the end, with proper training martial techniques can make the job much easier.
The first thing to do is read “The Truth About Self Protection” by Massad Ayoob (if you want to read more books after that send me an email and I’ll send you a complete list of good books). Then enroll in any martial arts school that you want, picking it by using good common sense in the same manner you’d by any product or service. Is the instructor making outlandish promises? How do they train? What do they teach? Find a school that most closely matches the needs for self defense, your budget and other practicalties so that you’ll actual go to the school and not sign up and then quit in 2-3 months.
One last thing, since they were mentioned, pepper/chemical sprays are notoriously ineffective because those who use them routinely do not practice an effective way to deploy/use them. Improperly used they become just another gimmick or talisman that gives a false and potentially dangerous sense of security because they aren’t a realistic form of defense. Chemical agents basically come in two forms: choking agents or tearing agents. Tearing agents are plain useless, they don’t have sufficient effect, their only advantage being that don’t need the same level of accuracy to have their regretably minimal effect. Choking agents on the other hand can be very effective, the drawback being that it can take several seconds to have profound effect, tend to be shortlived in effect, and must be deployed with great accuracy (you should hit the assailant just below the nose or on the mouth), which is not simple in a self defense situation without the necessary practice, which again few people who buy these products bother to do.
To flysyndrome: The key difference between all traditional martial arts and a street attack is that martial arts has rules and referees (even the UFC), and a street attack doesn’t. For starters, you have to assume that a mugger has a weapon and friends (usually friends with weapons).
You don’t say how old your daughters are, but it might be worth getting them some training to look out for themselves. Dad won’t always be around when there’s trouble. Also, what might work for you as a large athletic male in, say, a bar fight may not be what your daughters need to do to escape a sexual predator.
Beware of anybody who claims to have a secret super self-defense method. (Maybe llapgoch is the exception.) There are only so many ways people can push/punch/kick each other. For practical, non-sports oriented self-defense techniques, which include avoidance and de-escalation as well as fighting, the model mugging/impact programs are worth a look, especially for women (but I don’t mean any disrespect to anybody else’s approach).
http://www.prepareinc.com
http://www.dcimpact.org
http://www.rmcat.com
I think there’s another reason to like boxing. The queasiness and nightmares associated with gouging out somebody’s eyes, or reducing somebody’s kneecap to powder won’t be there.
He attacked me, so I punched him until he dropped. No moral qualms there.
I like boxing, just for the basics of learning how to take a punch and throw a punch. I don’t know if I’d pursue it long-term, but it’s something I’d take a few lessons in.
I re-read your OP and in it I get the idea that you are looking to acquire a means of defense. Not necessarily looking for a serious dedication and/or change in your lifestyle. Most or ALL martial arts for that matter require a lot of your time, quite a bit of money usually and lots of discipline. Boxing, even more so…these guys are good fighters because that’s ALL they do, workout and fight.
It’s not that boxing is superior or any other discipline. It’s what you put into it.
If this IS also what you seek then cool, go for it.
Otherwise, I would probably just check with the local police and see if and when they conduct basic self-defense classes. They are usually a combination of different techniques that are easy to learn effective and readily applied. A couple of weeks and maybe a followup from time to time. Ask the teacher where to workout or get advanced training.
That is, if you just want to learn a few basics. But until you make up your mind. If you are truly worried about this.
Flu Let me ease your mind a little. 
At 6’ tall and 200 lbs. plus, an angry scowl would probably keep most folks away. Not too many muggers are willing to take their chances with a big guy. Just invest in a good heavy walking stick or carry a baseball bat with you where you can. A big angry/scared guy with several feet of hickory in hand defending his family…unless there’s several punks or some guns involved. That ought to be plenty.
**AND the best way to deal with an armed mugger is to HAND him your wallet. ** Especially since you’ve got a family.
take care
I thought I would chime in with a few more thoughts.
I agree with those who note the limits of BJJ. While BJJ is an excellent art to know if you get taken to the ground, in a real fight or life-and-death situation you want to avoid getting taken down to the ground. Further, if you are facing multiple attackers, getting involved in a triangle choke or arm bar isn’t going to do much good when the other assailant is kicking you in the face.
Another limitation to some martial arts is that their complexity interferes with your ability to actually utilize your training in a real fight. As has been mentioned earlier, unless you have been conditioned to remember your training under stressful conditions, your training is likely to be useless later on. Further, after studying numerous complex moves in TKD and karate, I finally realized that these were worthless to me - as the odds of actually executing one of these effectively in a fight is not very high.
Therefore, to me, the best MA is one that trains you to respond instinctively to an attack - and then later trains you under stressful conditions. Krav Maga emphasizes that responses to aggressive moves should be based upon the body’s instinctive response to the threat. An example would be that if the person’s natural response to being choked is to grab the assailant’s hands, any training that involves other techniques is not likely to be used in a real life-or-death situation. The response to the choke should be one that is built upon the person’s natural response to aggressive attacks.
Krav Maga utilizes some of the most effective responses to aggressive attacks that I have ever seen. And, since they are based on the body’s natural reaction to these aggressive moves, your likelihood of recalling them in a real fight are improved considerably.
After training in Krav Maga for a while, the training becomes much more intense and you begin to practice the techniques under stressful and intimidating situations. It is under these conditions that you will become more able to use them in a real situation.
My .02 euro cents.
Having a long personal history training in MMA, IMHO the key to actual resolving a physical confrontation is actually down to your abiltiy (or lack of) to recognise and handle the physical symptoms of the adrenal dump and other automatic responses. Failure to act (freezing up) or misunderstanding the natural ‘flight or flight’ reaction are two of the most common mistakes in Self Defense. I can assure you that most bullies, muggers and pub fighters are well schooled in handling their adrenaline, and probably have a decent right cross to boot.
Good reading on the subject can be found in Geoff Thompson’s book Dead or Alive: The choice is yours.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873649141/qid=1068722903/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-6962980-4367304?v=glance&s=books
and Marc Animal McYoung’s Cheap Shots, Ambushes, And Other Lessons : A Down And Dirty Book On Streetfighting & Survival
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873644964/qid=1068722831/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/102-6962980-4367304?v=glance&n=507846
Unless you pressure test any martial art, you will fail to respond properly in a real life situation. Any good self defense class should have you performing full contact sparring (or at least heavy bag work) and enact scenarios that include verbal abuse (with real swear words!) to simulate the most common assualt situations.
You should also practice in street clothes, I mean unless you are lucky (!) enough to be assualted on the way from the dojo to your car, then training principles and techniques that rely on a Gi are impractical.
Hope this helps.
Jim
May I be so bold as to suggest My current line of study?
Medieval European martial arts.
Certainly the focus here is historical fencing, but it doesn’t have to be for you. There is also staff fighting (what better instrument to use than a large stick?) and dagger combat (in case someone pulls a knife on you). Additionally unarmed combat techniques can be studied as well.
This type of combat is a martial art unlike, judo for example which is purely sport (although it certainly can be useful for self defense!). As such. it is meant to be used to incapicitate or kill your opponent, though hopefully (as with any martial art) you’ll learn enough so as not to have to actually kill someone.
Kinthalis, a few notes in response:
The “dagger combat” wherof you speak involves the bollocks knife. Bollocks knives have no appreciable edge and are almost pure thrusting weapons. This means that a lot of the old defense techniques against them use a great deal of hand-on-blad contact. Not a good idea against today’s “you can shave with it” gutting knives.
Judo is not purely sport. The problem is that most people in the USA (and the language of your post says “in the USA”) only get exposed to a tiny subset of judo–that portion usable as sport. Real judo can be used to incapacitate or kill someone.
Finally, one cannot guarantee that one will always have a stick on hand, not these days. Indeed, in some US jurisdictions, walking around with a stout stick can bring on unwanted police attention. The police consider it to be “looking for trouble”.
When it comes down to it, though, I’d rather have hard hands, a good punch, and a perfectly cool head than all the gee-whiz techniques in the world.
Not always, no. But yes, especially when you get into the renaissance period, these daggers were in common use.
No. There is NO hand on blade contact I’ve come across so far. There is a lot of grappling and controlling of your opponent’s arm.
Take a look at the history of judo. It did not evolve until the different schools of unarmed combat began meeting for sporting matches. Before this the type of ground work invoved in judo was unheard of in BOTH asian and european martial arts.
The only ground work a samurai would have known is that which is enough to get the heck back up quickly. The same goes for medieval knights.
Why? Because in the battlefield being on the ground == dead in a few seconds.
So can the sport. I practiced judo for 2 years in high school, and was involved in afew competitions. Choking techniques canbe very effective.
I wasn’t suggesting people walk around with sticks. But sticks are usually always available, an easy improvisable weapon. A cue stick, a nice piece of wood on the ground, I can think of a few things around the hous I can use to the same effect.
Well, technique and martial skill isn’t everything, but in the right hands, it can be lethal.
Th best weapon to have in a fight is the right mental attitude.
This equates to “I am going to do whatever it takes, and I am going to do it first”.
Forget all ideas of “dirty” and “fair” fighting - you are not in the playground, ring or dojo etc. Those rules DO NOT apply.
Th way to win a fight is to make it absolutely clear to the other fellah that he is going to be doing all the losing. That means you have to escalate the violence very quickly.
In my (extensive - unfortunately) experience the best attack is to lead with your head. Your arms and hands are only there to hold the other bloke while you butt him. Once you are in range there’s a lot to be said for biting.
Just remember the average street fight lasts a matter of seconds - and is decided in the first few seconds.
Go nasty and go early.
The advantage that martial arts (very few of which work in the real world - they’re pretty useless in a pub carpark) do offer is that confidence.
Hence why I’m suggesting tried combat techniques.
Either ancient bushido or medieval european martial arts.
These people were killing each other, and using these techniques to defend themselves in life or death situations.
If they didn’t work they wouldn’t have used them.
In just a day I have gotten a wealth of useful information that I had absolutely no knowledge of, and is very insightful. This has got to be one of the greatest forums on the planet
Lemme see: I do know a couple of policemen, and I will get their opinion as to which classes in the area adress the most commom problems in my community, surely if they must train to handle the streets they GOTTA know where the good instructors are.
Boxing is out: I know boxing must be a great discouraging tool, keeps you in mental and physical shape, on your feet ready to flee at first chance, but I don’t wanna break my nuckles or wrist on someone’s jaw when I need it the most, remember there ain’t no boxing gloves in street fights.
Always keep an eye in surroundings and suspect EVERY stranger that approach you, my father in law was walking downn a busy street, in a not particularly rough part of town, some idiot just aproach him and asked for the time and when he turned around, this guy broke his jaw with a punch from behind, left him knocked out on the street and took his wallet and watch.
I will check out a few different types of techniques to see what better fits my personality, just because you guys got me curious, I’ll start with that Krav Maga style and go from there. There are certainly LOTS of Karate and derivations schools around, but now I have more information to actually see what else is out there and not discard it cause I didn’t know the name of the discipline.
I noticed no one has mentioned Judo, I had a cousing, and also a friend in college who knew Judo, and they were always fooling around and getting my hand and taking me down with some of their tricks, they used to tell me “come at me like if you had a knife and stabb me” GRRRRRRR I used to hate that, in less than 1 seconds I was a crumpled mess in the floor, and I was bigger than these guys. Is Judo not advisable?
As someone mentioned, I’m not really in it for the sport or competition, just want to have SOME type of training that will give me some confidence and not freeze if the situation arises, and have a chance at defending myself. Avoidance is the key and I have had a really good luck at that, I hate violence and nothing would piss me off more than someone taking me to the point of loosing my cool and resort to violence.
Gouging eyes out? that is utterly disgusting, I just don’t know if I have it in me to do something so drastic or even think about it during a fight. Crotch grabbing? One piece of advise, During an adrenalyn rush you may not always be able to do this effectively, as I understanding the BALLS move up and your pippi gets smaller as blood is being redirected to more important organs and muscles.