Based on that idiot in El Paso I’d say my own odds would be pretty good to get a bullet, and so would most of my family. As are my chances of being pulled over for a ‘random’ traffic stop (just happened to me a few months ago in fact). But I’m still not overly concerned about it. There are a lot of things I think are bigger threats to American lives, including my own, by orders of magnitude.
You would think people would not need reminding, but, Martin Niemöller would like a word with you.
This isn’t Nazi Germany and Trump is no Hitler, nor do the Republicans have anywhere near the power or ability as the Nazi did, and this after a failed republic and a shattered economy in the wake of a failed and lost war. I honestly don’t see the parallels. Again, you need to put all of this in perspective. How many racists white supremacists do you think there are, out there? In the context of ‘threat to American lives’, the numbers are at extremely low levels. And while when they happen is spectacular, the context of the numbers just doesn’t seem to indicate it’s a huge threat to American lives. It SEEMS like it is, because when it happens it’s spectacular and people, rightfully, are outraged and respond, which the press is geared too. Another thing that isn’t a parallel to Nazi Germany, where, frankly, most of the public didn’t give a shit about some Jews having their shops burned or beat up…or sent to concentration camps.
Ok, so lets say the OP is right. What does he propose to do about it?
I submit that ~63M people don’t give a shit about some racist white supremacists targeting minorities. Which is not to say that all ~63M are ready to take up arms with white supremacists; they are mostly tacit supporters. Nor do I claim Kristallnacht is imminent; But I guess I should not expect people who have never experienced discrimination to be very good at reading the early warning signs.
But you’ve convinced me, XT. Let’s wait until an economic collapse, a failed republic and rule of law, loss of support from former democratic allies, cozier relations with dictators and despots in search of power, and a more polarized population. No sense in worrying about the smell of smoke. Let’s wait till the house is on fire.
Right, like I said, it is a dangerous ideology that will spread unless it is actively fought. Anytime you have a group that sees themselves as superior to others, and therefore have the right to impose their will on those they deem as inferior is a form of racial supremacy.
Do you doubt that our meddling has created many of the problems that we leave them to solve?
Sure, individual should take responsibility for their actions, but to treat ourselves as not having had more than a little bit of influence is just to absolve ourselves of responsibility entirely.
I’ve not seen that.
I’m not sure if you are quibbling about the word “we”, or are questioning the history of the division, but to be specific: “We” as in the United States, and specifically a couple of US military officers who barely bothered to locate Seoul on a map before drawing a line across the 38th parallel and calling it a day.
Do you have any disagreements with that statement?
Without delving into the history of the Korean conflict too far, I would say that the DPRK saw neighbors to their south rounding up and executing political dissidents and suspected sympathizers and were fighting off repeated incursions over the 38th parallel by the South Korean forces.
The further atrocities that were ignored, encouraged, or even committed by the United States in our use of the Korean peninsula in our proxy war against another (predominately white) super power should give North Korea reason to consider much of the outside world to be hostile and prepared to reengage the war that never actually came to a close.
Don’t forget the Senate.
The point is to head these things off at the pass, rather than to let them grow to the point where we have to engage the bulk of the world’s military to settle a matter of ideology.
If at all possible, remind or educate folks like you that white supremacists are an ideological threat to American society and the world at large.
What do you propose as an alternative?
Man, that’s a lot of assumptions and straw there. It’s also some horseshit that you think that 63 million Americans ‘don’t give a shit about some racist white supremacists targeting minorities’, especially considering that a percentage of those ARE minorities.
Who said anything about waiting or doing nothing? I’m saying the risk is low…that doesn’t mean we do nothing. As a society, it’s in our best interest to step firmly on the necks of such folks and punish them to the extent of the law when they break it. Again, unlike in Nazi Germany, where it was the ruling party doing this shit and/or encouraging their citizens to do so.
In terms of the OP, it’s just not a huge threat to ‘American lives’, or a huge threat to America. It’s not even a small threat, in the context of a country of 330 million people…even if we assume, as some do, that the opposition party is ALL in favor of white supremacist racist shit.
White supremacists think that white people (by their definition of white people) ought to be in control of society. They don’t necessarily think that they already are. In fact, they’re often found complaining (usually inaccurately) that somebody Not Them is in control.
…I’ve already cited this. People that aren’t white are the targets of white supremacy. The ICE raids, what they are doing with the Green Cards, this isn’t an accident. The Venn diagram should be crystal clear. If you are white then you are unlikely ever to have an ICE agent come up to you and demand your papers. Thats the point.
Like?
I was disappointed to learn there were that many as well. I can only go by what the current number of Trump supporters reveals. Also, being a minority does not absolve or prevent one from holding racist views or supporting those who express them.
Since a large majority of illegal immigrants to the US are from Mexico and Central America, obviously actions against illegal immigrants are going to affect them more than any other group. That’s kind of how math works.
Regards,
Shodan
Well, I quoted your post. But if you need an example, my post actually said nothing about ‘Let’s wait until an economic collapse, a failed republic and rule of law, loss of support from former democratic allies, cozier relations with dictators and despots in search of power, and a more polarized population. No sense in worrying about the smell of smoke. Let’s wait till the house is on fire.’. See, you just made all that up, and put that in on your own. I didn’t say anything about any of that. What I said was, the Nazi regime who was responsible for what you quoted pretty much was born in that environment…which is completely, totally different than the conditions in the US today. If you are waiting for all of that stuff to happen in the US, basically you are, again, worrying about the wrong thing, since if that happens then the whole world is tits up and we are all fucked.
I also didn’t say anything about doing nothing…again, you and others pretty much just put that in from the XT that is in your heads who is speaking to you with your own voice and not mine.
Probably because you made that up. Again, it’s in your own head. It’s the sort of over the top, categorical insult that you can get away with on this board because it’s against conservatives and Republicans. The reality is what I said…the FBI and other international watchdog groups list the number of ACTUAL white supremacist groups not in the millions or even in the 100’s of thousands, but in the 1000-1500 range, with an estimated 100 persons on average per group. See, there is a huge difference between 63 MILLION and, perhaps, a few hundred thousand. Maybe. The fact that you see all of your political enemies in terms of being racist murderers is kind of telling, and it’s a direction that several posters seem to be going towards, especially in these more contentious debates.
So it makes perfect sense to shoot them and/or to take actions that result in separating them from their children?
It’s no great insight to point out that racists focus their actions against those they identify as undesirable. And they don’t particularly care whether or not they are illegal immigrants of US citizens, born and raised. That’s how white supremacy works.
…the threat isn’t that there have been a handful of shootings resulting in a handful of deaths.
The threat is that in a country of 330 million people there are millions of people who both are supporting a regime that is instituting racist white supremacist policies, and that these people will vote for this to continue in 2020. The threat is that there are probably thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of Americans who not only support the aims and goals of the shooters, but give a silent cheer every single time one of those shootings happen. The threat is that these white supremacists have figured out how to “weaponize” the internet, are using it as a tool to recruit people to their cause in ways that most of us can’t even imagine.
Of those supposed 63 million white supremacist racists, some support Trump for a variety of reasons not all of which have anything to do with the immigration issue going on. Some support Trump for his immigration because they feel it’s a big problem that hasn’t been and wasn’t being addressed. Some small percentage do so purely for racist reasons. Stating that all or even the majority of those 63 million are in lockstep on this issue is simply ridiculous and totally un-nuanced, and if it wasn’t about conservatives and Republicans it would be shouted down as a ridiculous broad brush. If some conservative poster tried to paint all liberals or all progressives or even all Clinton/Obama/whoever supporters as one thing they would be laughed at. Posters making these broad brush attacks against 10’s of millions of Americans are taken seriously on this board only when it’s an attack aimed at Trump Supporters/Republicans/Conservatives. Then it’s right and correct.
I’m none of those things. I’m neither white, nor a Trump supporter, nor a conservative (except on this board) nor a Republican. I see white supremacists as definitely an issue, but in the greater scheme of things it’s a small issue that, because of the spotlight and some spectacular attacks in the public’s focus. I get that. It’s in all the press, so it must be a threat. But, what I’m not seeing is millions of people coming out of the woodwork in support of folks like that asshole in El Paso. Oh, and BTW, I have family who live there. I’m guessing that none of you folks do, or if they do they wouldn’t be targets of such an attack…unlike my family.
At any rate, I’ve given my thoughts on why I don’t think white supremacy is the biggest threat to American lives, and an example that most folks don’t even probably consider that is and kills a hell of a lot more American (and foreigners) each year than US white supremacy. I think, instead of focusing on white supremacy that a focus on nationalism, especially Trump’s brand, is more important and probably a bigger threat than a few 10’s of thousand or maybe 100’s of thousand white losers. YMMV of course.
He didn’t specify where he got his numbers, but, by implication, he’s talking about the Republican Party. But the Republican party is 24% of the US population, which is more like 78 million. So I would presume that he deliberately reduced that number, in part to get rid of the POCs in the party.
I probably wouldn’t have, however. He didn’t argue that they were white supremacists, just that they don’t particularly care to try and stop white supremacy. And I’d argue that’s almost certainly true. Only the Democratic Party has placed racism as a key component to stop, while the Republican Party not only doesn’t, but has actively courted racists, placing white supremacists into power.
I would argue that, by identifying as a Republican, someone is saying that they don’t believe stopping racism is a high priority. The exception would be if they are trying to change the party from the inside.
This is not the same thing as saying they support white supremacy, just that they don’t particularly care to stop it, either. The actual number of people who support white supremacy is lower.
I am not “waiting for all that stuff to happen”. I’m saying it’s well within the realm of possibility that it may well happen. If not in the US first, then certainly in other countries first and it will spread as fires tend to do. This administration is the least likely to prevent those fires from spreading because they in fact fan them.
It’s not in my head when I see thousands and thousand of people chanting “Send her Home”, at a rally lead by a president with a long history of racist words and actions.
Experience tells me that not everyone who thinks the same way shows up at a rally. Some prefer to cheer from the comfort of their own living room and voting booth.
Also, I said nothing about ALL republicans and conservatives being in support of bigotry. Those are your words, not mine. My words were: “Which is not to say that all ~63M are ready to take up arms with white supremacists; they are mostly tacit supporters.” QED: Trump rallies.