Whither Scotland?

I guess I wasn’t clear. CEBR did a detailed analysis. Then summarized it on a single page which I read and linked to. I summarized that in a short post. You are correct as a matter of logic and economics, but that’s not the methodology that CEBR used. I was trying to convey their results in an intuitive manner.

Presumably they have some kind of model/simulation. I gather that the underlying report is only available to their subscribers, but I might be wrong. I’d like to say that I could vouch for the organization, but I see now I was confusing them with these guys (CEPR), who are a different operation. I am not familiar with CEBR.

This has not always been the case. You only need to go back 50 years or so.

It was true 50 years ago, though less true than today. In both the 1964 and 1966 general elections, Labour did signficantly better in Scotland than in Great Britain as a whole, and the Tories did significantly worse.

Many people, unhappy with the politics in the UK, see independence for Scotland as some kind of new beginning that will be full of community spirit, socialism and prosperity. A place full of noble values, great energy and social justice.

This kind of idealism is very quaint, but unrealistic. And voting for independence because you don’t like Tories is daft. The issue is the fundamental constitution of the country that will affect generations to come and it cannot be voted out of office like politicans who have run out of ideas. You are stuck with it.

Independence will be cold comfort indeed if Scotland has the sort of experience that Ireland had. Not being able to blame everything on Westminster means that you have to blame yourself. That won’t be a pretty.

However, the carrot of a well funded socialist utopia in compelling and I daresay there will be a lot of people south of the border entranced by this prospect. Who knows maybe there will be a great migration of community minded, Tory hating radicals heading north. So, the Scots will at least have someone to blame when they find that there is not quite as much money to go around as they need and it descends into acrimony.

I have nothing but apprehension for what might come if this vote passes. It will fundamentally disturb all the nations in these islands for little benefit to Scotland or anywhere else in the UK. It is monumental folly to abandon the UK. Scotland will always be a little country living next to a much larger one. Just as it is for Ireland and Wales. There is no getting away from that fact and the Union is greater than the sum of its parts.

If the vote is Yes, Scotland will have to negotiate a different relationship with the UK. When it goes looking for grand alliances and treaties on the international stage, the most important one will be with the country it shares a land border with. A much larger economy with whom it does the most trade. To give up influence at the highest level within the UK to struggle as an small nation with no special right to tap into the scale and reach of of the UK economy is a great folly.

London had its Olympic moment when the people decided the celebration belonged to them. But that was a party and when it was over everyone got back to work. If the same spirit of communitas is pervading Scotland at the moment, there is one big difference. Once the independence party is over things will not be the same again. It will be a decade of divorce and argument. A disaster and it would all have been quite uneccessary.

If the Scots vote to leave, it will be the closing of a great many doors. The UK will still draw the cream of talent away from Scotland and it will get little back in return. It will be owed no favours because it will no-longer be a political partner, it will be just another country, with whom the UK will do business.

In politics fashions change from time to time. The fashion for the EU seems to give small nations an ego trip. But the reality is that size matters and Scotland is a wee country. No amount of wrapping yourself in flags and becoming intoxicated on national fervour is going to alter that fact.

9 days to go.

Well said, filmstar-en.

The Anglophile in me hopes for a big No vote. The political junkie (and lawyer) in me kinda-almost hopes for a Yes vote, just to see how things get sorted out.

If all the lefties are going to head north, I’m changing my mind and wholeheartedly supporting independence.

Gordon Brown puts the argument well for the Labour party, trying to recover some of those votes from the SNP.

As a Scot and former Chancellor and Prime Minister of the UK, he carries a lot of weight.

I completely agree with filmstar-en. Plus I always despise all nationalists anywhere — without being a soppy internationalist. ‘Patriotism’ is the antithesis of monarchical rule and it’s built on a mountain of lies.
Still, the horror held out to us is that minus the Scottish Labour mps, England will be condemned to the horrors of Tory misgovernment forever more. I’m not so sure, Cameron’s Legacy will always be ‘The one who lost the Union’, since he picked this stupid option and then failed to lay sufficient traps ( in a way that would be childsplay to any competent German or French politician ), and it was the Tories’ fucking insane austerity measures ( ably abetted by Labour, and of course the treacherous and professionally creepy Lib-Dems ) that drove the Scots to this madness.
Hopefully the entire rUK political spectrum will break up and reform into no doubt equally repellent entities. Punishment will be in order.

pulls on black gloves

As an American, I’m looking at this from 20,000 feet or so, at which height you miss more than you see. However, if there has ever been a less nationalistic national liberation movement, I can’t think of it. First thing they are going to do when they get out from under London is to go under Brussels.

You could say that that some Eastern European nations made a comparable voluntary shift from rule from Russia to be subsumed by a combination of Brussels and NATO. But I think they did that to gain allies who might protect them from Russia.

Just have to point out that the part of Ireland which became independent has been conspicuously more successful, economically and politically, than the part which remained in the UK. Yes, the transition from dependence to independence is a difficult one with a lot of errors and a few unpleasant shocks and some abandoned idealism along the way - just ask any teenager - but it has worked well for the Republic of Ireland, and there has never been even a whisper of a re-unionist movement.

I don’t see any reason to think that the Scottish experience would be any different.

Wasn’t NI wracked by Sectarian conflict, hence it’s apparent economic difficulties? But I agree ROI is a wonderful place, just wish I could live there!

Were I they I would have got a signed agreement from Brussels beforehand.

And until 2 years back the SNP was as eurosceptic as the vile Ukippers. And NATO-sceptic, which has also changed as they flail for reassurances from the world.

The party historically opposed EU membership, viewing it as incompatible with Scottish independence,[29] and former leader Gordon Wilson, former deputy leader Jim Sillars and other members continue to oppose; although it is noteworthy that Jim Sillars was the architect for the original pro-European change of stance in 1990, and has a book published to that effect. [30] [31] The SNP was historically opposed also to membership of NATO, a reflection of its opposition to nuclear weapons; at its 2012 national conference a vote saw party policy change to support of NATO, on the precondition of the removal of all British nuclear weapons from Scottish bases should independence occur.

Wiki

Thanks to Brussels.

Although never so poor as pre-Union Scotland, the poverty in Dublin and the more dismal regions was fierce in the 1940s. No-one wants to rejoin on either side, but the Irish economy took a long time to get going, not helped by the repayments to Britain [ *The British government, orchestrated by George Wyndham made massive loans at the beginning of the 20th century to help Irish farmers buy out their landlords *], and the Default of such by Dev. And Scotland doesn’t have half a century to get it right.

From your link:

(Bolding mine)

So, a bit more than two years ago, then. Many on the left in general have changed their minds on this issue in the past few decades.

Well, I have to point out that the UK was in the EU as well. And if the Republic of Ireland turned EU membership to better advantage than the UK was able to do, surely that underlines the benefits of independence?

Poverty in Dublin and the more dismal regions was fierce under the Union. Things were still grim in the 1940s, but they were actually better than they had been in the in 1920s. Yes, I’m not saying that the Irish economic performance was always stellar; it certainly was not, especially in the early years. But in the years since 1922, it has been better than the overall UK performance, and certainly better than the performance in Northern Ireland. Obviously there are lots of factors at work here - fighting the Second World War was kind of expensive for the UK, and as Ryan_Liam points out NI didn’t exactly benefit from its inability to construct a polity that would command the assent of a critical mass of its citizens. All I’m saying is that, taking the rough with the smooth, the independent Irish state played the hand dealt to it in a way that has produced a better outcome than the UK has achieved, and we might reasonably think a better outcome than would have been achieved within the UK.

Naw.
*TWO leading Nationalists attacked Alex Salmond’s Yes campaign last night over Scotland’s place in Europe.

Former SNP leader Gordon Wilson and ex-deputy leader Jim Sillars demanded a second referendum on EU membership if Scotland voted for independence in 2014.*
2012

Er, aye? Independence in Europe has been stated SNP policy since the 90s. That there are those within and outside the party who think otherwise is neither here nor there. The SNP as an organisation has not been Euroskeptic for two decades.

Although not left, I still think it would have turned out better had Connolly been there and de Valera shot.

Speaking as a Yank who finds sadistic pleasure watching an entire country cut its own throat I have one question for the Yes crowd: Are you drunk or are you high? This independence business has not been thought out at all and relies heavily on magical thinking. Before Union Scotland was mostly a destitute backwater and now seems hellbent on being so again. I couldn’t blame British voters for telling the independent Scotland to piss off whenever it begs for scraps. You want to use the Pound Sterling? Piss off and create your own bloody economy. You want your share of the defence toys? Piss off; you’ll take whatever shit we give you. You had your chance and you threw it away, so just piss off.

But I’m vindictive like that. :smiley:

You do realise that, if that were the attitude of people in the rest of the UK, that would be a pretty compelling argument for independence? Why on earth would you want to be a national minority in a country dominated by people who had such an attitude towards you?

Very possibly. But of course we must blame the Brits for shooting Connolly and sparing de Valera, rather than the other way around. :slight_smile: