Whither Scotland?

Great Debates
61

Unionist scaremongering?

The OP asks the question what happens after Scotland votes Yes for independence.

It is at that point that all these unanswered questions and vague assurances will be put to the test.

The Scottish electorate are not the ones who have to be convinced any more, it is the government of the UK and the 28 countries of the EU and the rest of the world who have to be convinced that an independent Scotland can address these problems.

Nationalist rhetoric and the naive optimism that the world owes Scotlands a lot of favours because they are a rich country, full of brilliant people who will enevitably ascend to command the world stage…

That sort of stuff is for voters who want to buy into a dream. Not politicians in other countries who have completely different agendas.

There will be hard bargaining and Scotland really does not have a lot of cards to play.

Once the referendum is over, these questions will have to be answered and I expect the single voice heard so far, that of the SNP will be joined by many other voices with rival interpretations of what Independence means and what is the optimum agenda.

There will be a big bun fight in Scotland over all of these issues both between Nationalists and amongst all the other parties in Scotland.

The timetable for an Independence day looks very unrealistic.

This will be akin to a divorce and so far all we have heard is from one side, the Scottish nationalist vision. The will get the house, the car, the pension and an allowance paid out of the joint bank account for the foreseeable future. Why? Because the Scots are awfully nice people and they deserve it! The UK will hire a very good divorce lawyer to ensure that unreasonable expectations are made a little fairer.

There will be some hard bargaining. No other country is going to compromise its own interests to help an independent Scotland. It is a hard world out there and it will be that much harder once the safety blanket of greater UK economy is removed from Scotland.

62

The context of the post I was replying to didn’t seem to be talking about that specific exception.

63

So considerably less than being a full member then! Money saved as well.

64

You do not address the problem of the obligations to not make someone stateless. Residents of Scotland will have the right to Scottish citizenship and also the right to reject it and retain their British citizenship. There are 500,000 English (and Welsh) resdients of Scotland- would they be stripped of their British citizenship? Merely because they happened to be living in Scotland in 2016? ANd what differentiates a Scot living in England from a Scot living in Scotland- do Scots in England lose their citizenship as well.

Any removal of British citizenship in this case would be so convoluted to be impossible. As a test- which of the following current possessors of British Passports and full British Citizenship would still be eligible for British Citizenship after independence:

1/ A person with two Scottish parents, who does not wish to take up Scottish citizenship:
a/ who has lived all their life in Scotland
b/ who has moved back and forth between rUK, Scotland and elsewhere, having children in either or both cases.
c/ who currently lives in rUK permanently settled
d/ who currently lives in rUK temporarily.
e/ who lives elsewhere permanently
f/ who lives elsewhere temporarily.
2/ A person with two Scottish parents, who wishes to take up Scottish citizenship.
a/ who has lived all their life in Scotland
b/ who has moved back and forth between rUK, Scotland and elsewhere, having children in either or both cases.
c/ who currently lives in rUK permanently settled
d/ who currently lives in rUK temporarily.
e/ who lives elsewhere permanently
f/ who lives elsewhere temporarily.
3/ A Person with one Scottish and on rUK parent who does not wish to take up Scottish citizenship.
a/ who has lived all their life in Scotland
b/ who has moved back and forth between rUK, Scotland and elsewhere, having children in either or both cases.
c/ who currently lives in rUK permanently settled
d/ who currently lives in rUK temporarily.
e/ who lives elsewhere permanently
f/ who lives elsewhere temporarily.
4/ A Person with one Scottish and on rUK parent who wishes to take up Scottish citizenship.
a/ who has lived all their life in Scotland
b/ who has moved back and forth between rUK, Scotland and elsewhere, having children in either or both cases.
c/ who currently lives in rUK permanently settled
d/ who currently lives in rUK temporarily.
e/ who lives elsewhere permanently
f/ who lives elsewhere temporarily.
5/ A person with two rUK parents, who does not wish to take up Scottish citizenship.
a/ who currently lives in Scotland
b/ who has moved back and forth between rUK, Scotland and elsewhere, having children in either or both cases.
c/ who currently lives in rUK permanently settled but has lived in Scotland in the past
d/ who currently lives in rUK temporarily but has lived in Scotland in the past
e/ who lives elsewhere permanently but has lived in Scotland in the past
f/ who lives elsewhere temporarily but has lived in Scotland in the past.
6/ A person with two rUK parents, who wishes to take up Scottish citizenship.
a/ who currently lives in Scotland
b/ who has moved back and forth between rUK, Scotland and elsewhere, having children in either or both cases.
c/ who currently lives in rUK permanently settled but has lived in Scotland in the past
d/ who currently lives in rUK temporarily but has lived in Scotland in the past
e/ who lives elsewhere permanently but has lived in Scotland in the past
f/ who lives elsewhere temporarily but has lived in Scotland in the past.
7/ A Naturalised Brit
a/ who currently lives in Scotland
b/ who has moved back and forth between rUK, Scotland and elsewhere, having children in either or both cases.
c/ who currently lives in rUK permanently settled but has lived in Scotland in the past
d/ who currently lives in rUK temporarily but has lived in Scotland in the past
e/ who lives elsewhere permanently but has lived in Scotland in the past
f/ who lives elsewhere temporarily but has lived in Scotland in the past.

And then there is the question of patriality of their children- do they get British citizenship if born in Scotland before Independence, After Independence, etc.

Try and make a rational decision procedure out of that.

Take me for example. English by descent and birth, permanently settled in Scotland, planning to stay here, may take out Scottish citizenship in the future. What will my status be under Independence? Please answer with possibilities.

What about my children, born in England, lived all their non toddler life in Scotland. What if one had been born in England and one in Scotland?

There is no way that such a situation could be legislated for except by allowing people who were born or naturalised British citizens to remain so should they wish.

65

Irish people born before 1949 are British Subjects if they wish to be. They also have the right to move to and live in the UK without restraint. By living in the UK for a period of time (I think five years) they are eligible for Full British Citizenship by registration or declaration- they do not need to apply for naturalisation. Think Terry Wogan!

66

David Cameron will face calls to take the unprecedented step in modern peacetime of postponing next year’s UK general election by 12 months in the event of a vote for Scottish independence to avoid the prospect of a Labour government that would depend on Scottish MPs.

Amid warnings of a “constitutional meltdown” after a yes vote, which would place severe personal political pressure on the prime minister, a growing number of Tory MPs are saying they will call for legislation to be introduced to postpone the general election. It would be the first time since 1940, a year into the second world war, that a general election would have been postponed.

One member of the government said: “You would see very quickly after the referendum calls for a delay in the election. You simply could not have an election that would produce a Labour government supported by Scottish MPs if the Tories had a majority in the rest of the UK. So you would say: OK Alex Salmond wants to negotiate the break up by March 2016. So we will have a general election on the new Britain in May 2016.”

There is a growing sense of panic among MPs from all parties at the prospect of a yes vote after a YouGov/Times poll showed that supporters of independence are for the first time within touching distance of winning the referendum. Support for yes has reached 47% of the vote amongst decided voters, against 53% for no with just two weeks to go.

Well placed members of the government have already started to consult the laws on postponing elections. An act of parliament would have to be passed, but there are complicating factors. The fixed term parliament act of 2011, which stipulated that the next general election would take place on 7 May 2015, would have to be repealed. The House of Lords would also be able to block the legislation because its power to delay bills by a year effectively becomes a blocking power on the eve of an election. One former law officer said: “Parliament can change elections, it can do what it likes. But it would be difficult.”

67

There’s your red herring, Pjen, if you really want one. Citizens of Scotland would not be stateless. Consequently, if people lose British citizenship upon acquiring Scottish citizenship, nobody is being made stateless.

You’re overlooking the fact that it has been done many times before. Time and again, in the context of the independence of some piece of hitherto British territory, legislation has defined a class who are to lose the status of British Citizen/Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies and acquire some new Commonwealth citizenship. If it has been done so often before, why does it suddenly become impossible if the piece of territory happens to bear the label “Scotland”?

You’re complicating this needlessly, Pjen. As pointed out, rules for this have been drawn up before; they can be drawn up again. A simple rule would be that, if you acquire Scottish citizenship (and this of course would be a matter of Scottish law), then you lose British citizenship, unless (a) you would be entitled to be, or to be naturalised as, a British citizen (under existing descent/naturalisation rules, but as applied to rump UK) and (b) you opt to retain British citizenship.

I’m not offering that as a definitive rule; it’s just a suggestion for an approach. It could be more nuanced, and it could have exceptions and qualifications. The point is, it can be done, it has been done many times in the past, and it doesn’t requires separate rules for all the various cases you list in your post.

There are only two possibilities; you will be a British citizen, or you will not. If the rule I outline above is applied, you will have or be entitled to British citizenship on the basis of having been born in rUK to parents, at least one of whom was (presumably) a British citizen, or was settled in rUK.

Your English-born children will be, or be entitled to, British Citizens by virtue of their birth in rUK to a parent (you) who was a British citizen. Your Scottish born-children will be, or be entitled to, British citizenship on the basis of having been born outside rUK to a parent (you) who was a British citizen otherwise than by descent. (Just as if they had been born in France, say.)

See? It’s not that difficult.

You keep saying this, but you overlook the fact that precisely this situation has been legislated for many times in the past.

Irish people born before 1949 are British Subjects whether or not they want to be, provided they don’t also hold any other Commonwealth citizenship (including British Citizenship) - which they could, e.g., by descent. All Irish citizens, whenever and wherever born, have the right of abode in the UK. This predates the EU and has nothing do with it; it has been the case since 1949. It has nothing to do with British subject status. British citizens (but not British subjects) have a corresponding right of abode in Ireland.

68

Not a red herring at all. Scottish citizenship will not be compulsory. Suppose on March 12th 2016 Scotland becomes independent. On March 15th I am a British citizen living in Scotland. Do I lose my British citizenship? Does it matter about parentage- how about the cases above? If people decline Scottish citizenship, they cannot be forced to take it on by another country whose citizenship they have had since birth.

69

Separating all the above possibilities in a rational manner, involving loss of British citizenship would be an administrative nightmare and a legal quagmire. When the dominions were made separate citizenships, there was little interaction and movement across the oceans and relatively few residents in the UK from the dominions. On the contrary the interchange of people between two contiguous nations over three hundred years cannot be easily untangled.

I am ducking out of this now until and unless you separate the above possibilities into citizens and non-citizens by a rational procedure.

70

Actually, they can, and (at the risk of repeating myself) in the UK context this has happened many times before. That’s not to say that it needs to happen this time, of course, or that it will happen this time. But if it were to happen, all they need to do to avoid anyone becoming stateless is to ensure that one of the conditions (NB not the sole condition) to loss of British citizenship is acquisition of Scottish citizenship.

You say that “Scottish citizenship will not be compulsory”. Is that correct? The Scottish Government’s white papers suggests that British citizens habitually resident in Scotland at independence “will automatically be considered Scottish citizens”, as will British citizens born in Scotland but now living elsewhere. There may be other classes of person who need to register or to apply for citizenship, but for the first two categories at least it would seem that citizenship will be automatic - or “compulsory”, if you will. There is no suggestion in the the white paper that peopl will have the option of disclaiming the citizenship that would otherwise be confered upon them. Has there been some announcement since then which modifies this position? (Note that this pattern of automatic citizenship for a large class of people conforms to all the established independence precedents, so it would be surprising if it were not followed here.)

Assuming the Scottish citizenship law provides as outlined in the White Paper, then you will be a Scottish citizen from Day 1. Whether you would then lose your British citizenship, of course, depends on the provisions of British law. We don’t know what the British law will say - if it says something like I outlined in my earlier post, you won’t - but, even if you did lose your British citizenship, you would not be stateless. You would be a Scottish citizen.

71

I will reply to that if and when you separate the above examples by a rational and just algorithm. You need to prove that what you claim could be possible in the real world.

72

Oh, it’s entirely possible that the British government might choose not to withdraw British citizenship from anyone who has it on independence day, regardless of the acquisition of Scottish citizenship. But so far as I know there has been no announcement about this from the UK government (or, naturally, from the Scottish government).

My guess as to what would happen?

  1. Nobody would lose British citizenship on the acquisition of Scottish citizenship, regardless of whether they acquire it automatically or by application, registration or naturalisation.

  2. But the rules about transmission of British citizenship to children born after independence day would be looked at, and possibly tweaked. I think it’s likely that, if such a child were to claim British citizenship by descent, the question of whether their British Citizen parent was born or settled in Scotland, or in rump UK, would be relevant. To transmit your British citizenship to your foreign-born (including Scots-born) children, your patriality will have to be linked to England, Wales or Northern Ireland rather than to Scotland.

  3. The “grand plan” for Commonwealth citizenship was always, and still is, for distinct citizenships. People can have two Commonwealth citizenships if they have connections with two countries. In the long term, to have British citizenship you’ll need to show a connection with rump UK, and not with a territory that was once in rump UK but no longer is. Transitionally, practically every Scottish citizen will also be a British citizen, but this isn’t a situation that will persist. A patrial connection with Scotland will no more give rise to an entitlement to British citizenship than a patrial connection with the Republic of Ireland does.

73

I’ve already pointed out that it has happened many times in the real world. What further evidence of possibility could you possibly want?

74

One of my boyfriends was a British citizen, born in Jamaica pre-independence: his mother chose Jamaican citizenship, his father British. Maybe both him (who was an idiot) and his mother (who was not) were wrong about this information (perhaps she was simplifying and he only ever got the simplified version), but if they were correct it seems as if in that case at least some people were able to choose.

75

It depended on your circumstances.

Under s. 2(2) of the Jamaica Independence Act 1962, on Jamaican independence day a Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (“CUKC”) ceased to be a CUKC if (a) he, his father or his father’s father was born in Jamaica, and (b) he became a Jamaican citizen under the law of Jamaica.

Jamaican law provided that every person born in Jamaica was automatically a Jamaican citizen from independence day. There was no provision for disclaming citizenship. Thus persons born in Jamaica automatically became Jamaican citizens (no choice) and automatically lost CUKC status (no choice) unless they came within the exemption discussed below.

CUCKs who had been resident in Jamaica for five years (but were not born there) could apply for Jamaican citizenship. If they did (choice) then they lost CUKC status (no choice) unless, again, they came within the exemption discussed below

The exemption; if you, your father or your father’s father was born or naturalised in the UK or a continuing colony of the UK (other than Jamaica), then loss of CUKC status was not automatic on acquisition of Jamaican citizenship.

So it’s possible that your boyfriend’s mother was living but not born in Jamaica, and she had the choice of becoming Jamaican, which would result in the loss of her CUKC status. And it’s possible that your boyfriend’s father was similarly situated, and he chose not to register for Jamaican citizenship, thus retaining his CUKC status.

But people born in Jamaica - which is most of the population - wouldn’t have had those options. In particular they would have had no choice about becoming a Jamaican citizen. Some of them might have had the opportunity to register as CUKCs on the strength of a father or grandfather born in the UK or in a continuing colony, and so they could choose not to lose their CUKC status.

And these provisions were pretty standard in all the UK decolonisations throughout the 1950s, 60s and 70s. As time went on they became a bit less sexist but, basically, they worked so that most people ended up with one citizenship or the other but not both, and in most cases they did not have much option.

76

No it wouldn’t. The rUK parliament would still be sovereign over the rUK and could pass an Act - maybe even just an Order In Council - removing the citizenship of all UK citizens resident in Scotland. They already have that information from tax, schools, etc. And thanks to computerisation, they can act on that information. Theoretically, in the extreme, on the 20th of Sept a letter could arrive on our doorsteps revoking our rUK citizenships.

If you want UK citizenship, vote No; if you want Scottish citizenship, vote Yes. It’s as simple as that. If you vote Yes you might get the best of both worlds but I wouldn’t bet on it.

77

I am not going to continue substantive discussion until you demonstrate how it could be done legally and fairly with the current population of the UK.

Scotland becoming independent is not a colony leaving the fold, but one nation state with a very mixed citizenship separating into constituent parts.

This will be negotiated anyway to ensure no-one loses citizenship rights. It is not in the gift of the rUK until separation is agreed. Citizenship issues will be settled by negotiation, not by a future rUK parliament.

Such issue might impact on the amount of time rUK is allowed to use Faslane and other military bases in Scotland and how the national debt is settled.

All this is just unionist and neo-colonialist scare mongering.

78

That’s better; you now agree with me that it would be almost impossible to remove British citizenship from current British citizens.

I made no claims about children born after independence, only about extant British citizens by birth or naturalisation.

79

Clearly unionist scare tactics. If I as a born Englishman do not take Scottish nationality, it would be illegal to withdraw my citizenship as then I would become stateless.

As noted above, this will be settled in separation negotiations, not unilaterally. This is not a decolonisation process, but a separation of a unitary state into two states.

80

Just put “unionist scaremongering” in your sig, it would save a lot of typing.