Whither Scotland?

[Pjen]

@Steophan

I can’t be the only person to think that “devomax” is an ugly, meaningless buzzword, and the sort of thing that would be best left out of the political discussion in favour of some nuance, and actual thought about what the effects will be, can I?

Home Rule then!

[Pjen]

@CarnalK

It’s not strictly defined but I wouldn’t call it meaningless. ISTM to mean virtual independence while remaining in the economic union of the UK. No?

It may be meaningless to you, but it would be not dissimilar to the EU. With the EU what is ceded is economic decision making about the market whilst retaining the right to make other laws. In Scotland’s case vis a vis the UK it would mean all domestic policies were decided nationally while ceding macroeconomic, defence and foreigh relations to the UK.

We have become used to running our own health service, education system, legal system, local government, penal system, broadcasting, land management and many other issues over the past fifteen years. There is a thirst to take over most other domestic functions and some if not all taxation and economic functions.

It is probably difficult for outsiders to appreciate how much of everyday life is already free of Westminster control- it is possible on slow international news days to sit through the main news and hear nothing about life in Scotland, with Education, Health Service, Legal system and so on being the main topics- all of no consequence here.

This does not seem meaningless now and will seem even less so with Home Rule/Devo Max.

[Pjen]

@Steophan

The problem with buzzwords is that they can seem to mean something, without actually doing so. What’s bothering me is that attempts to discuss the actual nature of further devolution, and the legalities and practicalities involved with that and with a reduction in Scottish MPs powers, are either being avoided or actively rebuffed. Pjen has constantly refused to engage in any such discussion, and indeed criticised me for doing so, as though wanting it enough will be sufficient for it to happen.

It’s been clear for a long time that the majority of calls for further devolution or independence are based on passion, not reason. Which isn’t to say that there are no reasonable arguments for either, but that they are not being used. When the sole argument in favour of “devomax” is “they promised”, it’s hard to take it seriously. It needs to be explained clearly and soon how it will benefit both Scotland and the UK, so that come the election next year the parties can have coherent plans for it, and people can vote accordingly.

Because I do not expect the rest of the UK to vote for giving more money and power to Scotland - a region that has a disproportionate amount of both - without getting something in return.

It may be your impression that the desire for Home Rule is irrational or passion led. Where is your evidence for this?

[Pjen]

@Claverhouse

In England anyone on benefits gets free eye tests, and those 15 or younger or 60 and older under the NHS, and anyone else at Tescos; and I paid naught for my last dental work since I was on benefits. There are plenty of NHS dentists wanting customers around here ( though less so in London.

Which means that the majority of the population do pay for dental work privately because the system was broken on purpose. Lack of NHS dentistry remains a problem over much of England. Here the problem has been solved by the Scottish NHS setting up local clinics that employ dentists mostly from old Eastern Bloc countries ( though my current dentist is Greek!) The range of treatments offered by the NHS at reasonable rates is very limited in England and quite comprehensive here. Prior to passing sixty I was paying for seven medications per month which meant I was paying about £150 pounds a year for medication via the season ticket scheme.

[Pjen]

@RickJay

Then they should present a plan to hold another referendum, if they want independence. What the hell else would you expect?

Exactly what I am saying. The deciding factor will be the will of the people. If the people are satisfied with Home Rule there will be little pressure for Independence, but should the status quo or only minor changes well short of the Vow be offered, or should there be a reneging on Barnett, or should the UK vote to leave the EU, then all options are open.

[Pjen]

@filmstar-en

Scotland is a rich country.

That seemed to be a catch phrase we with relentless frequency throughout the Yes campaign.

So do they need a subsidy from the rest of the UK?

It is a time for constructive ideas for how the UK and devolved governments should work.

I don’t think regional assemblies will get much support from the voters. Our local government elections last year persuaded only 31% of those eligible to use their vote.

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/local-elections

Local government is not well regarded. That is not going to get better by adding another layer of politicians at a regional level. It could turn into a fiasco like the elected Police Commissioners which went down to a highly embarrassing 15%. Or maybe it will become a place for protest votes like the European elections. Which also have low turnouts and seem to be full of one trick pony political parties that no-one seriously expects to do anything constructive.

Scotland showed how it can be done, when votes are perceived by the electorate to really count for something fundamental and not simply elect the usually party apparatchiks. But that was a one-off.

We also have a problem with our political parties, that have historically low membership levels and usually rely on benefactors or one sort or another.

I am not sure teaching schoolkids ‘Civics’ from a early age and allowing them to vote at 16? It might make them even more reluctant to vote. The first past the post system tends to mean that your vote does not count for much in an area dominated by one party. But Proportional Representation? We had a referendum about that and people voted against the idea.

There don’t seem to be any easy answers.

Scotland is a rich country if its oil is counted as Scottish income, which it is not- it goes to the exchequer in Westminster. Barnett compensates for that.

Scotland has been an excellent model for democracy. We have proportional representation that is working excellently and providing a legislature that reflects the breadth of opinion in the country from Scottish Socialist to Conservatives. This is not a one off- we have had three general elections and one referendum that have galvanised the people because with the extra member system you know that at least one of your votes is likely to count. Local election turnout is somewhat higher in Scotland and again there is a system that ensures that there are few wasted votes. We do suffer from four completely different systems of voting- EU, UK, Scottish Government, Local Elections.

[Pjen]

@LC_Strawhouse

People are really treating the “Yes” side with WAY more solemnity than they’re worth. These people are basically the tracksuit brigade, led by a few perpetually-angry doubletalkers.

That is quite a slur on nearly 50% of Scottish voters.

[Pjen]

@filmstar-en

A Plastic Jock is an English person who claims great affinity with the Scots. There is a more common variation, the Plastic Paddy - those who romanticise an Irish connection. It makes me wonder if there is such a thing as a Plastic Taff, which would be someone English who adores everything Welsh.

Plastic, of course suggests that it is a man-made substitute for the genuine article.

Is it an insult? Well that is best answered by the person it was directed to. I thought it was just funny.

I found it objectionable and the Moderator has commented on it. It is disparaging in the same way that any such racist taunt is. I happen to have little affinity with the faux nationalism of Tea Towel Scots, finding the clinging to false or at least doubtful traditions that make no sense in the modern world; I feel the same about similar English delusions.

What I find from living in Scotland is a vibrant political culture that is modern, fair and citizen centred. I find that unlike England, most people here have warm feelings towards their political system and method of governance. My attraction is not toward the people but toward the process and outcome.

That is why Plastic Jock is a racist taunt- and not even near correct.

[Pjen]

@UDS

Oh, come now, let’s try to remain at least somewhat connected to reality. In the referendum just completed, there was a 45% vote in favour of independence. There clearly is a desire for independence in Scotland; it may not be the desire of a majority of the voters, but it’s the desire of a very substantial minority. A unionist who cared about the union would have to admit that (a) there is a desire for independence in Scotland, (b) support for independence, while not a majority, is strikingly high, and (c) the posssiblity that the future course of events might turn see 45% desire for independence grow into a greater than 50% desire cannot be lightly dismissed.

People who genuinely care about the union, and who are not stupid, will be concerned to know what might be done to prevent this happening and, ideally, to reduce the demand for independence in Scotland. The leaders of the main unionist parties appeared to think that promising the Scots a greater measure of devolution, to be delivered in early course, was an effective way to do this. I am not saying that they were right to think this, but I see no reason to think that they were wrong.

If so, the notion that the fulfilment of this promise should now be held up as a way of exerting leverage to get “something for England” would be an extremely stupid one and, again, no genuine unionist who is not irredeemably stupid should countenance it for an instant. Such a stance would be a gift from the gods to Scottish nationalists; a living demonstration that, yes, at Westminster the rights and interests of Scotland are subordinated to English political considerations. Even if the promise of early Devo-max did not, in fact, win additional votes to the NO side, reneging on that promise or subordinating it to English concerns seems likely to change minds in the other direction.

Reason at last. Many of the posters here are acting in a way that would send many Independence sceptics in Scotland into the YES camp! The arguments remain redolent of colonialistic impulses, treating the Scots as less than capable of deciding or managing their own affairs- and English attitude down the centuries.

[Pjen]

@Steophan

I’ve not said it should be held up based on that, I’ve said repeatedly that, for the benefit of the union, power should be shared out proportionally. That doesn’t mean Scotland having devolved powers and also power over the rest of the UK. This should be an issue that’s sorted out in the coming negotiations over devolution, as it’s effectively part of the same issue.

Ultimately, I am in favour of the Union overall. It’s certainly better for Scotland than independence would be, and whilst in the long run I could see the UK being better of with less Labour voters and a fairer distribution of wealth (ironic that it would work like that) it would take far too long and do too much damage in the short and medium term.

Hopefully, if devolution is handled properly, Scotland will have to raise its own money through its own taxes rather than claiming more than its share from the UK. Which is another thing I’m not convinced all the Scots have thought through.

Ultimately, Scotland voted decisively for Union last week. Hopefully, their government will accept that, and act in a way that’s best for the whole Union, not just Scotland. I expect they will, just as I expect English MPs to.

Two points: Scotland’s claim to oil revenue that has disproportionately bebefitted England over the decade, and the fact that membership in the SNP has doubled over the past few weeks- strange that there is a rush to an anti-unionist party if we voted so decisively for the union. It will be interesting to see polls on Independence/Home Rule/Devo Max/Status Quo after the announcement on 30th November!

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

@Pjen

Lack of NHS dentistry remains a problem over much of England. Here the problem has been solved by the Scottish NHS setting up local clinics that employ dentists mostly from old Eastern Bloc countries ( though my current dentist is Greek!)

You seem to be under the impression that England has also not seen a similar stark increase in the number of NHS dentists staffed with Polish and other Eastern European dentists.

When was the last time you actually lived in England? You seem to have a caricatured and inaccurate impression of the country that seems to inform more or less all of your politics.

@Pjen

I find that unlike England, most people here have warm feelings towards their political system and method of governance.

No wonder: the Scottish political system as it is serves to dole out money raised by taxes instituted elsewhere (at Westminster). The SNP administration has steadfastly refused to raise or vary taxes, even when they are able to under the terms of the Scotland Act 1998, and in fact thought the idea so politically toxic that they allowed those powers to lapse for seven years. Governance is more than doling out money and basking in the glory of politically popular schemes like free bus passes. It’s raising money through taxation and taking responsibility for decisions, rather than passing the buck back to Westminster.

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

@Pjen

Scotland is a rich country if its oil is counted as Scottish income, which it is not- it goes to the exchequer in Westminster.

Good thing we can calculate Scotland’s expenditure vs. receipts including oil. Per GERS 2012-2013:

Revenue (inc. North Sea oil) = £53,147mn
Current Expenditure = £59,627mn
Capital Expenditure = £5,579mn
Total = -£12,059mn

[Claverhouse]

@Pjen

Which means that the majority of the population do pay for dental work privately because the system was broken on purpose. Lack of NHS dentistry remains a problem over much of England. Here the problem has been solved by the Scottish NHS setting up local clinics that employ dentists mostly from old Eastern Bloc countries ( though my current dentist is Greek!) The range of treatments offered by the NHS at reasonable rates is very limited in England and quite comprehensive here. Prior to passing sixty I was paying for seven medications per month which meant I was paying about £150 pounds a year for medication via the season ticket scheme.

My dentist, whom I see free under the NHS is Polish, the previous one, also NHS was Iranian. They have notices in the window seeking NHS clients.
To suppose the system was broken on purpose presupposes intelligent planning on the behalf of the political classes. The fact is, John Major’s government closed dentistry schools on the '90s under the illusion there would be less people needing dentistry or something. Therefore they had to import immigrants as fillings.
I’ve rarely seen a doctor since leaving school, but every time I have ( or attended a hospital for relatives ) there have been no charges whatsoever to me or anyone else, whatever my current income was at the time.

[Pjen]

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

Good thing we can calculate Scotland’s expenditure vs. receipts including oil. Per GERS 2012-2013:

Revenue (inc. North Sea oil) = £53,147mn
Current Expenditure = £59,627mn
Capital Expenditure = £5,579mn
Total = -£12,059mn

Apples and Oranges.

From the same source

n 2012-13, total Scottish non-North Sea public sector revenue was estimated at £47.6 billion, (8.2% of total UK non-North Sea revenue). Including a per capita share of North Sea revenue, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £48.1 billion (8.2% of UK total public sector revenue). When an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue is included, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £53.1 billion (9.1% of UK total public sector revenue).

In 2012-13, total public sector expenditure for the benefit of Scotland by the UK Government, Scottish Government and all other parts of the public sector, plus a per capita share of UK debt interest payments, was £65.2 billion. This is equivalent to 9.3% of total UK public sector expenditure.
So 9.1% of the revenue and 9.3% of the expenditure.

Government Expenditure & Revenue Scotland 2012-13

Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

What? Either I’m going senile or those are exactly the same figures that I quoted! £53.1 billion including a geographic share of the oil in revenue, and £65.2 billion in expenditure, leading to a ~£12 billion black hole. In what way does your post refute my own? You even said yourself that Scotland accounts for 9.1% of the UK’s revenue but accounts for 9.3% of its expenditure, a 0.2% of total UK revenue overspend in Scotland.

[Pjen]

@Claverhouse

My dentist, whom I see free under the NHS is Polish, the previous one, also NHS was Iranian. They have notices in the window seeking NHS clients.
To suppose the system was broken on purpose presupposes intelligent planning on the behalf of the political classes. The fact is, John Major’s government closed dentistry schools on the '90s under the illusion there would be less people needing dentistry or something. Therefore they had to import immigrants as fillings.
I’ve rarely seen a doctor since leaving school, but every time I have ( or attended a hospital for relatives ) there have been no charges whatsoever to me or anyone else, whatever my current income was at the time.

Two thirds of NHS dentists won't take children as new patients

Two thirds of NHS dentists in Greater Manchester are refusing to take children as new patients.

NHS data analysed by the MEN shows that a huge number of surgeries across the region are not accepting under 18s.

It suggests parents are having to travel longer distances or pay for private work due to the lack of surgeries accepting children.

The news comes after the MEN revealed last month that children in parts of Greater Manchester have among the worst teeth in England.

But dentists insist there remains enough dental cover for families wanting to get their children’s teeth checked and repaired.

Figures from the NHS Choices website shows that only four dentists in Bolton - just over one in ten - are currently accepting children as new patients.

Only six surgeries in Rochdale are accepting new children - around one in four
http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/Derby-dentists-taking-new-adult-NHS-patients/story-22844527-detail/story.html

Only six Derby dentists are taking on new adult NHS patients

Two among many on Google news search for nhs dentistry England.

Same search for nhs dentistry Scotland returned no such news stories.

[Pjen]

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

What? Either I’m going senile or those are exactly the same figures that I quoted! £53.1 billion including a geographic share of the oil in revenue, and £65.2 billion in expenditure, leading to a ~£12 billion black hole. In what way does your post refute my own? You even said yourself that Scotland accounts for 9.1% of the UK’s revenue but accounts for 9.3% of its expenditure, a 0.2% of total UK revenue overspend in Scotland.

Yo quoted absolute figures showing a Scottish deficit of some seven billion pounds. What that disregards is that the whole UK economy was running at a deficit in that year with the rUK deficit over ten times that of Scotland. The real comparison is the percentage one which shows rough parity- just over nine percent of income and expenditure- a gap of about one billion rather than 12 billion! So rather than being an extra £2000 per person extra it is in fact £220.

[Steophan]

@Pjen

Scotland is a rich country if its oil is counted as Scottish income, which it is not- it goes to the exchequer in Westminster.

The oil belongs to the UK, which is governed from Westminster. It’s in UK waters, and the UK can do with it as it sees fit. Scotland, while it remains part of the Union, has no greater claim to that oil than the rest of the UK.

Scotland gets all the benefits of being part of the Union, with the wealth and power that still comes as part of an ancient and influential nation. You don’t get to take your share of that without also giving your share of what would belong to an independent Scotland.

The wealth that comes from the financial centres in London is British, not English, as is the power that comes from being a member in good standing of major international organisations. Scotland benefits greatly from them, as do the other countries in the Union. To take but not give isn’t really acceptable.

Were I the evil caricature you seem to think, I’d be on the side of Scottish independence as I think it’s the only way you and the others who want to separate not for rational but purely romantic reasons will learn. But I don’t wish Scotland the harm that would do, a greater harm than would be done to the rest of the Union.

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

@Pjen

Yo quoted absolute figures showing a Scottish deficit of some seven billion pounds.

You also quoted absolute figures, in fact, you quoted the same absolute figures back at me that I’d already provided.

What that disregards is that the whole UK economy was running at a deficit in that year with the rUK deficit over ten times that of Scotland.

No shit! The rest of the UK has a population 12 times larger than Scotland, and the British government has more obligations to fund than the Scottish parliament.

Your claim, therefore, is: we’re running a smaller deficit despite not having to fund the likes of the military or the diplomatic service and only having to provide services for a tenth of the population? Some claim to riches!

The real comparison is the percentage one which shows rough parity- just over nine percent of income and expenditure- a gap of about one billion rather than 12 billion! So rather than being an extra £2000 per person extra it is in fact £220.

Rough parity? There’s a 0.2% of total UK revenue black hole that your own figures show. The figures that you provided show that £12 billion hole. They simply do not support your claim that there’s merely £1 billion missing. In fact, I can’t even see where you are getting that from.

[Pjen]

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

You also quoted absolute figures, in fact, you quoted the same absolute figures back at me that I’d already provided.

No shit! The rest of the UK has a population 12 times larger than Scotland, and the British government has more obligations to fund than the Scottish parliament.

Your claim, therefore, is: we’re running a smaller deficit despite not having to fund the likes of the military or the diplomatic service and only having to provide services for a tenth of the population? Some claim to riches!

Rough parity? There’s a 0.2% of total UK revenue black hole that your own figures show. The figures that you provided show that £12 billion hole. They simply do not support your claim that there’s merely £1 billion missing. In fact, I can’t even see where you are getting that from.

But not the over £2000 per head that your gross figures suggest. The percentage figures are the only ones that matter as they allow for the deficit economy being run in 2012-13. To expect exact parity over every part of the UK I just not possible. If you cannot understand why Scotland having a 7 billion deficit when the UK had over 80 billion in deficit for the same period means that percentage rather than absolute values are a more accurate measure than I cannot help you further.