I posted this not as a troll but to see whether anyone knew more about Gypsies. (or, as at least some of them pefer to be called, Roma) My information is that they originated in India about 2000 years ago and were possibly a Hindu caste dedicated to musicanship and showmanship. They came to Byzantium about 1000AD and from there moved into Europe in several different bands, wherupon they scattered across the continent. Their original language is descended from Hindu and has been greatly changed, and his in fact been divided into several groups or even lost among some groups. Though they were greatly persecuted during WWII by the Nazis(as they had been before by other Europeans), many managed to survive, and some came to America. Now we read about stories of persecutions of Gypsies in the Czech Rep., Slovakia, Hungary, and Spain. Anyone know more about this than I do? And what do American Gypsies do?
You’ve done a lot of research, Lawrence. All I can do is offer some links:
My personal fave Rom info site, with a great deal of info on Romany culture and personal anecdote (thanks to Marko Courbet): www.patrin.com
An essay by the Czech Helsinki Committee on the disposition and situation of Romany in the Czech Republic: www.helcom.cz/en/zprava98/3_1.htm
A brief essay on Romany language from Radio Prague: www.radio.cz/romove/lang.html
A description of the Romany population of Finland (from the state-written Finnish information site): www.finland.fi/finfo/english/minorit4.html
A decent examination of Romany religious beliefs from ReligiousTolerance.org: http://www.religioustolerance.org/roma.htm
-andros-
Well, you’ve pretty much summed up everything I know about them. Except I had heard their language descended from Sanskrit, which doesn’t necessarily contradict what you wrote since Hindi (and Hindustani and a kazillion other languages) also descended from Sanskrit.
Also, the “Gypsy” term came from their (incorrectly) supposed origin in Egypt. Their language is known as Romany, which I think should be pronounced ROMM uh knee … if you know what I mean. Rom is a syllable related to drom, a word indicating some kind of caste status in one of the aforementioned Indo-Aryan tongues.
That’s about all I know about Gypsy. That, and that one of them told my mama, on the day I was born, “You got a poor child comin’, goin’ be a son-of-a-gun.”
Any similarity in the above text to an English word or phrase is purely coincidental.
I saw a lot of Gypsies in England and Ireland, pulled off to the side of the road with junky cars, trailors (caravan), lean-tos, and makeshift awnings. At least that’s what the locals called them. Whether they were ethnic Gypsies or just called that because they were transients, I don’t know.
I see andros already posted the Roma site I linked (you miss a bit when you go off searching, ah, well…).
Don’t have anything to add to this except to recommend a movie called Latcho Drom.
Well I have heard some gypies are
Born in the wagon of a traveling show
There mommas used to dance for the money they throw
Their papas would do whatever they could
Like preach a little gospel, sell a couple bottles of doctor good
Mark, was that (w/o searching) an old Cher tune?
Ursa I was there ( Ireland/England in 86 and I saw a lot of them as well…
“I think it speaks to the duality of man sir.”
(private Joker in Full Metal Jacket)
Most of the so-called gypsies of the British Isles (now more often called just travelers) are not ethnically Gypsies. They are descendents of farmers displaced from their land.
I used to see them in Spain in the 1970s. They generally weren’t treated well, though at one college cafeteria, the students would leave their uneaten food on their trays and the Gypsies were allowed to come in and finish the left-overs. They actually had painted up horse-drawn wagons and colorful clothing, etc. Pretty interesting folks.
Wendell Wagner’s comments on Irish Gypies/Travelers is correct. The Travelers that are famed scam artists in the Southeast U.S. are an offshoot of that group.
The Irish Travelers may have a similar history to the Rom. They were forced off their lands by the British, were not accepted by other (already poor) villages and cities when they traveled through them, and were marginalized by society. Being “outside” society, they developed their own codes of survival (including treating settled people as marks). Of course, there is now a self-perpetuating cycle in which the Travelers are always viewed with suspicion and hostility and they, in turn, often continue to rely on dishonest methods to earn their livings.
Travelers in Ireland are a mixed lot: they now usually refuse to settle when land is offered from a sense of honor or something; many are honest people performing the duties of the old-time tinkers, repairing items for a living; some are still quite willing to simply be crooks. The ones that came to the U.S. and maintained their own in-bred clan have become pretty much a criminal family.
I often wonder if the Rom went through the same sort of alienation when they arrived in Europe. The self-perpetuating cycle is certainly in place: any theft that occurs near a Rom encampment immediately brings the cops out to roust the whole camp; feeling persecuted and “outside,” some Rom do pursue criminal lifestyles.
Tom~
I always thought that the “Romany” part of the Gypsies self identification was due to their association with Byzantium/Constantinople, as also mentioned by Lawrence. At that time, Constantinople was Roman, at least in name.
I visited Romania a few years back. That nation seems to be Gypsy Central. I was told by locals that the so-called “king of the Gypsies” lived in Romania.
We were constantly beset by Gypsies during our time in Romania, asking for handouts. Typically, we would be approached by a group of children with their hands out, begging for change. A few steps away, watching the proceedings furtively, would be their adult “handler”, who would collect from the children whatever they were able to beg. Occasionally, a woman with children in tow would approach us to beg. These folks were referred to by the settled locals as Gypsies, and they did appear to be ethnically different from the surrounding population (i.e., darker skin).
We were robbed while asleep on a train in Romania. The authorities and fellow passengers blamed Gypsies, and we were told tales of Gypsies flooding train cars with sleeping gas of some sort, the better to rob its occupants. Don’t know if any of that is true. In the Czech Republic, when we told this story, the locals nodded knowingly, and had a few choice remarks about the Gypsies coming into their country from Romania.
Romania takes its name from its connection with the Holy Roman Empire (and Romanian is a Romance language, similar to Italian). I always assumed that Gypsies got the Romany tag because of their close association (in the minds of other Europeans) with the nation of Romania. Am I wrong?
DISCLAIMER: I have nothing against Gypsies personally. I don’t have a clue who robbed us on the train, or whether Gypsies were in fact involved. I am simply reporting what I saw and heard. None of the Gypsies we (knowingly) encountered tried to rob us or rip us off. There was just a lot of begging.
Another discussion on this topic, in this same forum, can be found here.
http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/005668.html
No, the Holy Roman Empire was the “reborn” western empire created by Charlemagne and the Pope in 800, which was finally more or less destroyed by Napoleon, although a memory of it lives on in Austria.
The Romanians are the descendants of ancient Romanized Vlachs (and perhaps Dacians), with a considerable subsequent admixture of assimilated Slavs. They like to think that their half-Latin, half-Slavic language is the purest surviving form of Latin, a delusion they share with the French. (The title really belongs to Sardinian, as an ideal reasoner would no doubt have predicted.)
As far as I know, the origin of the name “Rrom” is uncertain. “Gypsy” seems to be based on a vague notion that the Rrom came from Egypt, a useful notion when they were trying to sell their fortune-telling skills in a Europe that (hard as it is for us to imagine) had no “mystic” associations connetected to the name “India”.
John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams
Is the term “wandering gypsy” redundant?
The Irish call their wandering folk “tinkers.” From whence the term “not worth a tinker’s damn.”
John W. Kennedy–
You are correct, and I erred. I meant to say that the name Romania derives from the connection with the Byzantine Empire --the eastern Roman Empire (the seat of which was in nearby Constantinople). (For some reason, I confuse this mentally with the Holy Roman Empire.)
Romanians consider themselves to be the true descendants of the Romans (as any Romanian will proudly tell you), and they took the name Romania in the 1800’s to preserve and highlight the connection. Their connection with the Byzantine Empire is apparent, in that they follow an Orthodox form of Christianity, rather than Catholicism.