Do you know who else had tight, well written songs that were performed well? Spın̈al Tap.
Yes, there were at least a couple cases of that. Well, one that mentioned Googling, the other asked whether they did “Lola.” Now, to be fair, I can absolutely understand completely missing them if you’re a casual listener. I mean, I don’t think the Ramones are obscure by a longshot, but like, I dunno, the Sex Pistols or the Clash, if you missed that wave of music and didn’t come back around to it, you may not know specific songs of theirs but they just jostle around in your brain as a cultural reference point, but not knowing exactly what they did. Like, for me, the Grateful Dead were one of those bands. Heard of them for the longest time, couldn’t name a song by them. In high school, I may have known “Touch of Gray” but nothing beyond that. Now I can maybe name ten Grateful Dead songs.
No. It speaks to their obscureness. In retrospect, I guess I know that “Oy, Oh” song, but nothing else.
People are seriously comparing the Ramones and the Grateful Dead to the Beach Boys? That’s laughable.
The Beach Boys were huge internationally, the other two were a footnote.
I am quite certain that there are currently more fans of either the Ramones or the Grateful Dead, than the Beach Boys. I’m not minimizing the Beach Boys at all, but 1. the Grateful Dead’s surviving members are still touring and still commanding high ticket prices and selling out shows, and 2. the Ramones are a cultural touchstone for everyone in the punk rock scene, which includes a huge number of people. Compared to those two, it’s the Beach Boys who are the “footnote.”
I think it depends on maybe the subcultures you floated around in. The Ramones were well known among the people I hung around with internationally (like I said before, almost any country I visited in Europe, I’d find someone with a Ramones tee shirt on. Maybe it’s a fashion thing, I don’t know, but I can’t remember the last time I saw anyone with a Beach Boys tee shirt on [and I’m a bigger fan of the Beach Boys than the Ramones].) It’s very difficult for me to deny their influence. They are a lasting legacy among musicians and listeners, and will always be one of the important bands of rock history. I really can’t see any way to deny that.
I got to thinking about Paul Revere and the Raiders today. Don’t worry, I’m not going to argue they’re the greatest rock band, but they put out some very good straight-ahead rock and roll songs, they mostly demonstrated good musicianship, and theywere very good in live concerts. For the sake of argument, let’s say they check several boxes for the definition of (decent) American Rock Band.
But here’s the problem.
Their best songs were written by someone else. In fact, the songs that were written by band members were distinctly inferior.
Their recordings were at least augmented, if not completely performed by the Wrecking Crew.
The band’s personnel constantly shifted. There were multiple lead guitarists, bassists and drummers, some of who left and returned several times. Even though Paul Revere was supposedly the leader, his keyboards were pushed so low both in recordings and live that they were often non-existent.
When we try to figure out the Greatest, does the band have to be all the same members, playing only their own compositions, and never covered by uncredited studio musicians?
And if we agree to all three of those qualifiers, what do we do about David Lee Roth vs. Sammy Hagar?
In my own opinion, the question of songwriting does not really play a role. It’s cool to have a band that has a coherent, continuous, and unique writing style derived from its own members, but it’s not necessary, as long as whoever did write the songs is talented. Many of the Grateful Dead’s best songs were written by John Perry Barlow or Robert Hunter, not Garcia or Weir. God knows Led Zeppelin didn’t write a lot of their songs, but that doesn’t stop me from considering them an outstanding band.
If every single one of the Beatles’ songs were written by separate songwriters who weren’t part of the band, it would not remotely make them any less great, in my opinion.
Hunter and Barlow were lyricists. The Dead’s music was written by band members, just like Bernie Taupin would be nothing without Elton John’s music. Zeppelin certainly took from blues music and more modern stuff, but they’re weren’t anything like a covers band, and even there worst appropriations were more bits and pieces than whole songs. As that article notes, lots of groups stole from blues songs. And Jim Gordon stole his piece of “Layla” from his former girlfriend Rita Coolidge.
The Beatles were a great covers band, maybe the best ever. If they had stopped there, we might remember them the way we do Manfred Mann, also a great covers band. They wouldn’t be THE BEATLES by a million miles. You can like Three Dog Night all day long. They’re not in the conversation for greatest band, and won’t ever be.
Yeah I guess I should have specified “lyricists” rather than the broader “songwriters.”
Send Sammy back to a solo career, which was fine, bring Diamond Dave back, keep him sober enough not to get too obnoxious again, and shoehorn Eddie away from that damned synthesizer and get him playing guitar again.
No Ramones, no Sex Pistols. No Pistols, no indie, alternative, grunge, shoegaze, pick a genre. Or down another axis, no Ramones, no Motorhead, no NWOBHM, no hair metal, no speed metal, no thrash, no black metal, no doom/grind/defrocked priest grunting down a sewer pipe-core. I mean, you can dislike the Ramones or be indifferent to them, but their influence was huge.
Yep, I agree with this, mostly. I think of Steely Dan as jazz rock (not Fusion!!).
Remember Michael Jackson assigned himself the nickname the King of Pop. He used Rock tools when they suited his songs.
Regarding Van Halen: They got famous with DLR, and got commercial-er with Sammy. Just like the Doobies with Tom Johnston vs. Michael McDonald 
It’s so funny - The Velvet Underground are held up with the quote (Peter Buck?) about how only 1,000 bought the album but each of them started a band. With Van Halen, millions bought the album - and damn near every band after them tried to exploit their formula one way or another. The entire hair metal genre dominated MTV for 5+ years because of them fercrissake. An entire genre of guitars thrives today because of Eddie’s innovations (Superstrats).
The Velvets were like a cool build-your-own PC kit that inspired a few geeks; Van Halen was like the iPhone
Jacquernagy - I have to disagree about Jerry Garcia’s voice. Dylan and Neil Young are the ones who brought challenging vocals to folk-ish rock songs that crossed over commercially.
As for The Ramones - Leaffan, you and I hang out in music threads. You know I don’t try to make assertions just to be a douchebag and stir the pot. The Ramones are at least as influential as The Beach Boys in the “recipe for music” that prevails today. Not trying to be cute - it is simply true.
We can argue whether they should truly be in contention for The Greatest because they never attained commercial popularity themselves, and they didn’t have much of a creative arc, per se. But next to Chuck Berry, The Beatles and Zep, few bands have more influence in today’s guitar-based music.
Maybe the most quintessential American rock band might be Kansas. Hits, longevity…and they overcame the disadvantage of actually coming from Kansas.
I am rather dubious thatthe existence of the Sex Pistols was necessary for grunge to emerge. I am pretty sure in one way or another, rock music would have progressed without the Sex Pistols.
I’d further point out that “influence” really can’t be the only criteria for determining the greatest American rock band, or you can’t even begin to suggest it’s the Ramones, as they themselves had a number of influences, who themselves had influences, and logically those influences have to be as important as the Ramones, who counted among their influences the Stooges, the Beach Boys, CCR, the Kinks, and Zeppelin.
The Ramones were primarily influenced by commercial pop - they loved **Motown **and copped the “Hey Ho” chant in Blitzkrieg Bop off the Bay City Rollers, who had the song S.A.T.U.R.D.A.Y Night. From a production standpoint, Tommy Ramone - drummer and producer - wanted to emulate Phil Spector but instead of a Wall of Sound via a huge number of traditional instruments, The Ramones used distorted guitars. (this is all in the book Please Kill Me, which is required reading)
So there ya go. But so? Every artists has influences. **Chuck Berry **ripped his guitar licks off of Louis Jordan’s horn arrangements, and T-Bone Walker. Same as it ever was.
Well, sure, I’m sure in an alternate universe without the Ramones or Sex Pistols someone else would have bubbled to the top with similar musical ideas, but in this universe, those are the two godfathers of punk. Without punk, grunge isn’t grunge (which to me, is a meld of punk and Black Sabbath/70s British heavy metal/hard rock.)
I saw them once, on a double bill with Pat Benatar during the summer of the comeback bands at the Greek. They were terrible. They sounded like they hadn’t even rehearsed, not tight in the slightest. Totally destroyed my conception of them.
And then that little girl with the powerful voice and her badass guitar-hero husband came on and blew them off the stage.
I always thought they sounded kinda flat.
Steely Dan is rock. Rock always expanded it’s purview over time. When it’s original and rocks it’s rock. Jazz rock is something else because there is no element of improvisation in the Dan, except for solos. Jazz-rock was never songwriters being good at what they do, it was players playing. The Dan were writers and used players as the palette for rock. They transcended genre anyway.
The velvets influence was deep and slow and under the surface. That was why it was notable to someone to point it out. The whole point of the comment was to say that. Van Halen was just another rock band playing out the string, more visible than others, with gimmicks. Can you imagine hard rock without van halen? It’s easy.
Um, both the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson are still touring. The Beach Boys with Mike Love and Bruce Johnston are playing Wednesday night in Youngstown OH, tickets start at $40. I am seeing Brian Wilson, along with Al Jardine in July, and tickets for that started at $50. Depending on how you feel about David Marks, that means every living Beach Boy is touring this year.
The whole “Dead is an influential band” idea is only true for people who live within that very specific musical subset. Yeah you can name a few dozen bands they influenced, but it is easy to name hundreds who have nothing in common with them and like it that way.
I recently responded to a similar thread somewhere else that the three most important bands of the 1960s were The Wrecking Crew, The Funk Brothers, and Booker T. and The MGs - preferably with the Memphis Horns thrown in. Based on your criteria of “musicianship, a coherent body of work, and continuing influence” I would pick any of those three twice before even thinking of the Dead.