Another issue to be raised on Jefferson’s relationship with Sally Hemmings is the relationship between Sally and Jefferson’s wife Martha. Jefferson’s father-in-law, John Wayles, was believed to be the father of both Sally and Martha and some reports say the two alleged half-sisters bore a close resemblance to each other. So Jefferson may have started sleeping with Sally after Martha died because of her similarity to his late wife.
Starguard,
Please do some research before you post to a thread. Don’t try to post on the basis of your vague memories of a movie and miscellaneous information that you read years ago. It’s clear that you’re not very good at remembering things. In the meantime, buy a good biography of Jefferson and read it carefully. Most of the facts of his life are undisputed. For instance, it’s undisputed that he never publicly advocated the abolition of slavery. It’s also undisputed that he never publicly acknowledged his relationship with Sally Hemmings. Had he done either, he wouldn’t have been elected to anything.
We’re trying to fight ignorance here. Your posts on Jefferson have merely confused things. They’re also basically a hijack, since Jefferson can’t be given any credit for ending slavery.
No, this is still a matter of extreme controversy.
There is not now nor has there ever been any proof of the allegations. The 1998 DNA study merely said that Thomas Jefferson was one of seven members of his family that could have been the father of Sally Hemings’ last child.
The leading opposition is the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society.
The Scholars Commission report, downloadable from that page, is the case for saying that Jefferson did not father any children at all by Hemings.
Of course, that report has itself been heavily attacked.
A summary of the circumstantial evidence in favor of a special relationship can be found at the official Monticello site: http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings-jefferson_contro.html
The following quote from that page has apparently been softened from the original stronger statement because of the doubts raised:
As far as I can tell, however, nothing that Starguard has posted is true except in the loosest sense that Jefferson existed.
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
No, this is still a matter of extreme controversy.
[QUOTE]
Please go back and re-read comment #37
Hello everyone…I’m back!!!
First off, Id like to apoligize to ** kanickbird** for this posting going array. As stated in comment#15, It was nt my attention to hi-jack your original posting and as soon as I address a few statements that were made by others (all with good intent), I will do ALL within my power to re-direct all attention back to your origional question…
Hi everyone…I’m back!
For Neuritik-
This is in response to the four quotes you posted in comment #40
You Quoted me as saying:
“Some have tried using scientific data or DNA testing to either prove or disprove exactly how many children Thomas Jefferson had from Sally Hemmings( some have stated that they had no children at all)”
** Your response was**
Again I’m pretty sure it’s been established that there was an affar and they did have children together.
** My Response** How can you be so sure. Refer to [THIS](http://www. angelfire.com/va/TJTruth) and tell me what you think.
You also Quoted me as saying:
“Others view this entire topic as an embarrasment to the US Government and have tried time and time again to both deny (and prove) that the entire event never even happened.”
** Your response was**
Cite? As near as I can tell the US government couldn’t possibly care less. The only people making a stink denying it are the legitimate ancestors of Jefferson
** My response** Please read my Quote again. I clearly stated that “OTHERS” (not the Government itself) view this as an embarrasment to the Government and sought to prove that the event never even happened. Also I strongly believe that the US Gov’t **Does care a great deal ** about any and every activity concerning the lives of every President that has ever served this Country (especially one of the Founding Fathers…controversial or not) and I am very confident that it has very detailed records of them
You also Quoted me as saying:
" Some have tried to romanticise his relations with her in an attempt to win the hearts of the American Public (Sort of like the way Shakesphere did with Cleopatra and Mark Anthony)"
** Your Response**
Very True
** My response** If you need proof, look HERE
You also Quoted me as saying
“The list goes on and on. I’m afraid that the real and brutal truth can (and will) only be known to the US Government, and for reasons unknown to me, I don’t think that they will ever be shared with us.”
** Your response**
What brand of tin fiol do you use?
What speciual information, exactly, do you think the US Posesses? What reason, do you think, they would cover this up? The answer to oth questions are none.
My responseWithout doubt or reason, I am VERY sure that the Government keeps a very detailed record of every President that has ever served. I stated this before. If ANYONE in the world would know the actual truth behind the Life and Times of oone of our Founding Fathers it certainly would be the Government!
Neurotik - In Response tothe reference in the first quote (that doesn’t work), look here http://www.angelfire.com/va/TJTruth/ and again, tell me what you think of it.
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner]
Starguard,
Please do some research before you post to a thread. Don’t try to post on the basis of your vague memories of a movie and miscellaneous information that you read years ago. It’s clear that you’re not very good at remembering things. In the meantime, buy a good biography of Jefferson and read it carefully. Most of the facts of his life are undisputed. For instance, it’s undisputed that he never publicly advocated the abolition of slavery.
Are you sure? Try looking here
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/slavery.htm Please read it VERY CAREFULLY and tell me what you make of it.
To everyone else, please go back and CAREFULLY read my first postings. I am by no means a historian or profesional Authority on this, My only point was to prove that there are MANY DIFFERENT AND CONFLICTING ISSUES pertaining to the life and times of this great man and his slave mistress. No one I believe will ever be ablt to prove without a doubt what actually happened between those two.
For everyone else thats interested, if you would like more info in the life and times of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, please look at this webpage http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=sally+hemmings&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&cop=mss&tab= and read through each Site. While on each site,read through each subsite as well
From it you should get a very detailed amount of conflicting information proving that there is no one source that can either prove or disprove what actually happened back then. I still firmly believe that if anyone does know exactly what happend back then, it will be the Government, and so far it for whatever reason has failed to share it with us. (The general public) 
After reading the ENTIRE WEBPAGE and all of its sub-cites please come to my new posting ** Can Thomas Jefferson be credited with ending Slavery in the US** and post any further comments there.
From here I would like to give his posting back to its origionator, KANICKBIRD who origionally asked **WHO CAN BECREDITED W/ ENDING SLAVERY **
Again kanickbird…I apologise
You will find this topic “Can Thomas Jefferson be credited wih ending slavery” in Great Debates
On this I stand firmly Corrected. You are correct and I was wrong :smack:
My reference stated that the act was passed in 1793 with a
Now here’s a cite stating she was born on 1763 . Scolll down to the middleof the page and look for Sally Hemings hispeed.com - This website is for sale! - Hi speed Resources and Information.
See how conflicting history on this topic is :eek:
What I read exactly was two brief references, on mentionning this act in 1793, with a 10 years delay for implementation, and another stating that slave trade was abolished in Canada in 1802. I assumed that the 1802 date was corresponding to the 10 years delay (yes, I know it’s only 9 years, but I supposed it could have been implemented a little earlier, or went into effect on december 31, or something like that).
I can’t say more, since there wasn’t any more detail.
By posting this you have destroyed any slight remaining shred of credibility you may still have had. You’ve proved that you don’t know the history involved, can’t put two facts together to make a theory, and you don’t actually read any of the cites you link to.
Sally Hemings enters history as a teenager brought to Paris to accompany Jefferson’s daughter, Polly, in 1787. A birth date of 1763 would make her 24 years old. But this is impossible. Everybody agrees on this - including that site with the typo of 1763 for 1773. If you had read the whole paragraph you have seen that it says explicitly that “At the time, Sally was 14.” Which by simple subtraction gives the correct birth date of 1773.
(This also implies that somehow you think that making Sally a 13-year-old slave girl in Virginia can support your statement that she influenced Jefferson writing the Declaration of Independence in Philadelphia. Which makes her not just precocious but telepathic as well.)
You accuse others of not doing their reading and research - by the bizarre route of pointing to a page of Sally Hemings links that you obviously have not read yourself. From your very first postings you have proven that you don’t read anything on the subject, including your own links. In post #2 you said “I believe that he had a Black woman as a mistress while serving in office and even bore a few children by her.” and then in post #3 linked to a page that said nothing of the sort.
Then there’s this:
The notion that the Government (capital G) has a super secret historical CIA that knows everything about all the presidents - but refuses to tell the truth to any real historians - would make for a very funny satirical novel. But other than that it’s strictly tinfoil hat territory.
I repeat my earlier statement: everything you have posted here is wrong. Any resemblance to history is like a stopped clock being right twice a day: sheerly accidental.
Worse, you have a long history of coming into threads, posting absolute nonsense and then vowing to return with research to prove your case. On those few times you do return, your “research” is just more nonsense. I wish you would stop doing this. In the fight against ignorance, your posts are one long inglorious retreat.
Expano…read the above quote VERY CAREFULLY and tell us what do you see here.
You can’t make a correct statement and then follow it with a typo from a site you haven’t bothered to read and then say “See how conflicting history on this topic is” without making an utter fool of yourself.
You stand condemned from your own words.
As always.
Oh Exapno- If you would be so kind as to go back and re-read the statement I made in referce to the attached link, you might noticed something that you missed.
I believe my comment was:
“Now heres a cite stating she was born on 1763, see how conflicting history on this topic is”
If you would be so kind as to click on that link, you would find a date for Sally Hemmings listed as:
Sally Hemmings (c1763-1835)
My referral to this link was only meant to prove that there are conflicting reports from various sources pertaining to the year she was born. bonzer posts stated that her birth year was 1773. (and for all I know, his may be right)
I believe you missed the part of my comment that said "
again…see how conflicting history on this topic is" :eek:
Who have I accused of not doing their research? Plese Identify them to me
Go to Yahoo and type the name Sally Hemmings in the search engine. It will link you to an entire page of historians and DNA experts that have bickered day and night trying to either prove or disprove this. Please read through each one carefully.
I do believe that you misunderstood me. I clearly stated that I personally believe (and still do believe) that our Government “as powerful as it is” would have strong and understandable reason to keep records on the actions and behavior** every** president that has ever served this country, and for reasons unknown to me, may not feel the need to share every detail of these actions with the public at large
Example: Look at the incidents that took place with President Clinton and Monika Lewensky. If memory serves me correctly, Rumor was floating around that President Clinton was facing the possibility of being impeached behind it. I would think that that during this era, our American Government would have kept very accurate records of every moment and event that took place during his scandal, but from fear of it being an embarrasing issue, may not feel the need to share every detail of it with the general public at large. Why would Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings be any different.
If for some reason you fail to cmprehend this, here is a simpler example:
Lets assume you are married, you have several children that constantly look up to you for guidance and leadership. You are the father of the house. Now, suddenly Rumors start flying around from an outside source that you are having an affair with the babysitter. You deny it, but only you and the babysitter know the truth. In order to save your image as a good man and father, you do all you can to convince your wife and family that you were not involved with anyone. Would you want the entire world to know every detail about all of this, or would you rather keep a lid on it feeling that its none of the worlds business.
(Most people would rather keep it behind closed doors)
Please Cite? I really would like to see them, but before you do, I ask of you a favor. Please post them in the Great Debates area in the topic about Thomas Jefferson that I started over there. I want to continue this, but also would very much like to give this topic here in General Discussions back to the origional owner.
Right…but that’s not a conflicting report. It’s a typo. We know it’s a typo because the same site also says (bolding mine)
So, if Sally was 14 in 1787, she would have been born in 1773.