Who cares about what it means to be 'conservative'?

In this thread on Sarah Palin’s resignation, there is some discussion of what it means to be ‘conservative’. Some are asserting that the last eight years of Republican rule should be used to judge the merit of conservatism. Others are disagreeing, saying that while Republicans have been in power, they have not governed as conservatives.

This touches on something I’ve seen a lot of in the last few years: two people, both describing themselves as ‘conservatives’, disagree on an issue. Both vehemently claim that their position is the ‘true conservative’ stance.

Rarely do I see such debates among disagreeing liberals. I had thought for a long time this disparity was due to the electoral success of Republicans - nobody wanted to speak for ‘true liberals’ when they couldn’t win elections. But now that conservative politics are at a low point in influence, I still hear lots of different people claiming to speak for ‘true’ conservatives.

As pointed out by London Guardian correspondent Michael Tomasky few months ago, the current Republican party is not typical of modern political parties in the US. Forged in the wake of Goldwater’s 1964 defeat, the various factions were united primarily by their oppostion to communism. These factions included the religious right, laizzes faire capitalists and cultural nativists. (This is an incomplete, crudely-delineated list, but will serve for this discussion). Since all of these factions sincerely opposed communism, this political alliance took on the appearance of a unifying principle. Oppostion to communism papered over their differences, for the time being.

(It seems to me that barring such a unifying force, it’s unlikely that half of a country the size of the US would be united by a single ideology. Many European systems have ideologically-based party systems, but they usually have a lot more than two parties).

Whereas the Democrats of the same era were made up of various disjoint factions (organized labor, civil rights, certain cultural elitists) who never pretended to be ideological brethren. The lack of a single set of principles made the Dems less unified, but it did teach them how to compromise. Organized labor didn’t have much overlap with the civil rights movement, but they both usually voted Democratic. Culturally elite liberals didn’t have many shared interests with either of the others. But they all had to ‘go along to get along’. (Again, I am greatly simplifying the list and delineation of factions in the interest of time).

In the wake of communism’s downfall, the various Republican factions are still acting as if there is some principle tying all of them together.

And they all seem to be laying claim to this principle.

In my opinion, Republicans need to figure out where they stand (in the year 2009 and beyond) on the points of conflict between, say, laizzes faire capitalism and religion (do we or don’t we allow casinos, pornography, all-night liquor stores, etc?).

Or, between laizzes faire interests and cultural nativism: do we or don’t we want the cheaper labor resulting from lots of immigration? (Republicans until recently appeared posed to get increasing numbers of Hispanic voters, but vocal cultural nativists have made that less likely).

Or, between globalization and tradition: do you let Wal-Mart into your town, or don’t you?

To the small-town, red-state population that Republicans need to appeal to, these questions matter more than “angels-on-a-pin” debates about the philosophical underpinnings of conservatism. (And I should point out here that a major conservative tenet, oppostion to ‘big government’, doesn’t definitively answer these questions for the Republicans. The Republican party is not the Libertarian party).

I am an independent. I voted for Obama, but I sincerely want there to be a stronger opposition to the excesses that are inevitable with one-party rule.

But IMO, if the Republicans continue to ignore their own differences in their quest for an ideological purity that may not exist, they will never be able to put up this opposition.

So I guess that’s the debate: does the definition of ‘conservative’ really matter? Or should Republicans focus on compromising on practical, real-world differences?

True conservatism = Republican - Bush

Tricky thing with questions: they’re always simple. It’s the answers which aren’t.

The Republicans would be better served by, I think, letting go of the United We Stand shit. I get tired of seeing a politician embroiled in some spectacle and then the Ann Coulters of party get on about how so and so is such a great guy and should apologize (which is code for the media should forget it I think) and what not. I’m not saying that democrats don’t do this, but that wasn’t the question.

It just makes their ideology (puritanical, christian, morals-based shit) fail to resemble their application of it.

I would find it quite enjoyable if the differences among politicians weren’t so contrived. Frequently, we get the right arguing with the far right. That isn’t a difference of opinion; it’s a difference of scale.

I think that another purpose of such contrived ideological arguments is obfuscation. Specifically aimed at people seeking whatever flimsy justification they can find to avoid reassessing their beliefs. As you say, both parties have intellectually-incurious people in their ranks, but as I said in the OP, I hear much more ideologically-based debate among Republicans.

I recall Rush Limbaugh’s comments that James von Brunn, who shot people at the holocaust museum, was influenced by “leftists”. ‘Evidence’ cited by Limbaugh included von Brunn’s negative comments about neoconservatives. This conveniently overlooked the fact that many neocons are Jewish, which might possibly have influenced the opinions of a batshit-insane anti-Semitic white supremicist.

I wonder if von Brunn has ever spoken ill of Sandy Koufax. If so, maybe we should hold Giants fans responsible for the shootings?

The people in that thread trying to claim Bush is representative of both fiscal and social conservatism are his opponents, not his supporters. There might be better examples around, but you can’t blame conservatives for flawed attempts to tar them all with the same brush.

They did the tarring themselves when they supported Bush. Bush only became “not a real conservative” when he failed.

Grumman, if you describe yourself as conservative and were willing to criticize Bush’s fiscal recklessness before public opinion deserted him, I applaud you, and wish there had been more like you.

Yeah, too bad they didn’t say any of that, you know, a few years ago, when it may have made a little difference.

He is a real conservative, but a social conservative who believes in a large, controlling government has little to do with a fiscal conservative who believes in a small government of limited influence. Just like support for same-sex marriage or the legalisation of cannibis doesn’t mean you support protectionist fiscal policy.

Ultimately, it’s just politics by label, or tribe if you prefer. Rather than taking, justifying, or arguing about positions on issues, we segregate ourselves politically into tribes–conservatives over here, liberals over there–and do our politics accordingly. If you want to join the conservative tribe, you have to espouse all the conservative positions–never mind that there’s no particular need for most of them to follow from any of the others. When there’s a disagreement, it takes the form of ostracism rather than debate. Hence, X is not a true conservative, and Y is more conservative than Z.

(Obviously, I think it’d be lovely if people would take positions on issues more and emphasize their “conservative values” less…)

The problem is that there were other now fiscal conservatives who only rediscovered fiscal conservativism when someone else’s hand was the one reaching into the purse. YMMV of course, but to me there is little reason to believe that the current crop of fiscal conservatives wouldn’t simply toss aside such beliefs were they to regain power.

Conservativism now is something like church: something to cling to when one is in trouble and something to be paid lip service to when one isn’t.

I don’t know what rock you guys live under, but conservatives had been attacking Bush throughout his presidency. There were howls of outrage at his steel tariffs, at his prescription drug benefit, the Harriet Miers nomination… He took a lot of heat from conservative Republicans throughout his presidency. The main reason they wound up sticking by him during the elections was simply because they found the Democrats to be wholly unpalatable.

Had the Democrats put up a conservative, mainstream candidate like Sam Nunn in the 2004 election, he would have beaten Bush. Instead, they picked John Kerry, who was a lightning-rod of near-Palinseque proportions for conservatives, and shot themselves in the foot.

Sam, wouldn’t you agree that Bush was a pretty clearcut “values” conservative and a pretty clearcut “national security” conservative?

The record on “small government” conservative was arguably a mixed bag: He lowered taxes and tried to privatize social security but on the other hand the prescription drug benifit…

Put it another way - he promoted the part of “small government” conservative that is popular, i.e. lowered taxes, and wisely avoided the part that loses elections, i.e. shrinking the size of government and services. So he immediately started running up deficits even back when times were good.

But compare that with Reagans record. Reagan did exactly the same thing - lowered taxes, ran deficits when times were good, didn’t shrink the size of government. So how would you argue that Reagan was a more “true [scotsman ;)]” conservative than Bush, and if not Reagan, then who possibly?

Also consider this: for 6 years the republicans in congress failed to block Bush policy agenda; were they not “real conservatives” either? Why did you guys not vote them out - were they also running against Palinesque “lightning rod’s”?

Oh yeah, Rush would have weighed in daily on why real Americans should vote for President Bush’s Democratic opponent. The Swift Boaters would have sung backup.

Remind me again, who was living under a rock in 2004?

Wiseass comments aside, Sam, I am seriously interested in your opinion on the OP.

Whether or not I agree with you, the scope of your knowledge on economics, and understanding of novel problems, can enlighten this discussion.

I don’t think the label ‘conservative’ is very useful any more. There was a time when social conservatives intermingled with ‘Rockefeller’ conservatives and got along fine. You could unite the party by paying a modicum of lip service to social conservative values, promote generally pro-business values, and be hard on defense. That was enough. The cold war bound all the factions together. Ronald Reagan paid lip service to social conservatism, but he was a Hollywood conservative, not a pious church-going bible thumper. But that was alright, because he was strong on defense. He was a fairly solid economic conservative, but still couldn’t shrink the size of government much and occasionally forayed into bad policy like tariffs.

But the landscape is very different today. With the end of the cold war, there is no unifying issue to hold Republicans together. With the rise of the internet and the increasing power of younger generations, ‘conservatism’ in the sense of protecting family values and established institutions is dead. So the Republican party has fractured, and the biggest bloc standing is the religious conservatives, so they’ve been holding sway for some time.

However, there is one way the Republicans can find their ‘conservative’ values again and be united - Democratic overreach. I think people greatly underestimate how much Reagan benefited from the excesses of the two decades before him. The nation was tired of stagflation, tired of ever-higher tax rates, tired of the constant protests, and sit-ins, and what they saw as a lot of liberal excesses. New York was a mess. There were riots at Berkeley and elsewhere. The Soviets were in Afghanistan. Carter’s yapping about ‘malaise’ and his generally weak stance in the world was infuriating many. Reagan played off all of that, and was the right guy at the right time.

I think the same thing could happen again if the Democrats continue down the path they are on. Push too hard, too far to the left, and the Republicans will reunite, the ‘base’ will be energized, and the independents will swing back their way.

Still, I think ‘conservatism’ as a philosophy has to be seriously changed and adapted to the 21st century. We live in a time of the most rapid change humans have ever seen, and the younger generations are used to it and consider it a fact of life. Conservatism isn’t going to be attractive to them at all. Republicans need to figure out how to be for small government, low taxes, and general freedom, without the baggage of ‘conservatism’.

There are a few voices on the right that are working in that direction. Virginia Postrel (former editor of “Reason” magazine) talks about ‘Dynamism’ - the natural marriage of small government, local control, and the kind of rapid change we’re living through. People on the right like Glenn Reynolds (“Instapundit”) are not even remotely interested in ‘family values’, but are strong advocates for freedom, technology, local control, scientific research, and a more open internet and a more open society.

If you think about it, it should be the Democrats and their belief in central planning and central control who should be on the wrong side of history here. Everywhere you look, the internet and modern communications are having the effect of destroying centralized power, eliminating intermediaries and giving people direct access and control over things. Individuals have more information than they’ve ever had, more influence than they’ve ever had, more choices than they’ve ever had. Big central-controlling industries are dying right and left.

People who believe in things like open-source software (eliminating central control of codebases in favor of bottom-up, individual freedom and control of software) are exactly the kind of people who should be the most skeptical of big government and central planning. But Democrats have somehow convinced them that the answer for the 21st central is a powerful, central organizing authority running the show.

So long as Republicans remain the party of conservative old white guys and rural religious people, they’re doomed. As currently constructed, the Republicans are losing the demographic battle. They need to realize that the internet IS a giant free market without central control, and that their message should resonate among its denizens far better than that of Democrats. But ‘conservatism’ won’t get them there.

So how do Republicans get there? First - take a strong stance against the RIAA, the MPAA, and come out hard for new ways of handling intellectual property. These organizations are benefiting from regulatory capture and protected by government, and they’re in bed with the Democrats anyway. Dump 'em. Fight against things like the DMCA.

Take the lead in advocating for continued Laissez-faire policies with respect to the internet. Oppose attempts to levy sales taxes on internet sales, oppose censorship and attempts to access ISP accounts and such.

An ad campaign comparing the incredible success of the internet, which is not in any way centrally controlled, with the failure of big central institutions and big government projects. Become the ‘anti-conservatives’ - the champions of a modern world controlled by the people, allowed to grow and change organically as the internet has without a lot of central control and planning.

And as a purely tactical matter, the Republicans HAVE to let go of their opposition to gay marriage. There’s a golden opportunity here to do an end-run around the Obama administration. The religious conservatives have got to just suck it up - they need to realize that it’s really not that big of an issue - the world isn’t going to change tomorrow. But that issue is being used as a hammer against them, even though Obama is against it as well.

As for religion, what the Republicans need to do is to come out solidly for religious freedom. They have to convince their religious base that the best way to defend their religion is not to insinuate it into government, but to make damned sure the government stays away from ALL religion.

I could go on all day. There are so many opportunities for a new Republican Party that it’s not funny. Take education. How about some out-of-the-box thinking here? Instead of just advocating charter schools and vouchers to fund education structured in the same old way, how about a radical overhaul? Netbook PCs are cheap enough that any kid can have one - either with the family’s own funds, or with a subsidy. Come out and advocate for new centers of online learning, one laptop per child, etc. Higher education? Support open-source textbooks, online learning, new programs to increase the quality of extension learning through community colleges and junior colleges (who have really been at the forefront of online education anyway), and the end of control of education by the federal government. You don’t have to repeal anything or eliminate the Dept of Education - do an end-run around it, leverage the internet and private business to build new educational models, and let it die on the vine as the bloated, useless behemoth its become.

None of this is ‘conservative’ on the surface. In fact, it looks kind of radical and modern. But it’s deeply conservative in the sense of returning power to the people and ending the control of central authority on people’s lives.

The Republicans need a smart, technically educated person with charisma to lead the way. Someone like a Steve Jobs or TJ Rogers. Get organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation on their side.

It can be done. But not with the current leadership. And not with Sarah Palin. They need a new face for the party.

I’d like to add my voice to the quire in saying that Sam Stone is a real asset when representing a conservative movement viewpoint with the level of knowledge of the movements history and intellectual underpinnings like in the post above.

[Not saying I don’t get frustrated reading your posts on occassion when you are making the case for a position and sometimes resort to using your considerable rethorical skills and republican style “message discipline”…]

I guess your post was primarily directed F.U. Shakespeare (great OP btw) but i hope you don’t mind me butting in, since it is such an interesting discussion for someone like me (a progressive addicted to reading the corner on a daily basis).

But it was only after 50 years of hegemony for a paradigm of progressive reforms and social engineering that the scale had finally tilted too far the last time around. In addition, there was an unpopular vietnam war (started by democrats). A war that arguably shaped the birth and eventual explosion of counter-culture and revolting against all traditional values and common knowledge that took place in the 60s and 70s. And that revolt was certainly overreaching.

Even with all of that, I think you could make a good case that it still took the economic shock of massive oil price increases (arguably as big a contribution to the simultanous recession and inflation of the “stagflation” years, as was keynesianism and “big government”) to push the “small government” conservatism of Reagan and Thatcher into the mainstream. And the resolution of the oil crisis was as much about the application of foreign policy realpolitik as it was economic in nature.

Now, we have an unpopular war, started by republicans; We have a recession that swept out an unpopular republican president and we have a culture war (itself the reaction to the previous counterculture) that many mainstream americans finds overly aggressive and overreaching. Looks to me that the circumstances under which americans last fall rejected movement conservatism and elected Obama are about 50% the circumstances that got Nixon elected and 50% that circumstances that got Reagan elected, but with the (R) and (D):s reversed…

Sounds like you wan’t republicans to move in the direction of being libertarians… But is that a big enough electoral base, or do you think there will there have to be a “big tent” a la the democrats as suggested in the OP (and possibly dropping the “conservative” tag) to win elections?

Here’s a progressive argument that embraces general capitalism while still justifying a role for expansive government:

Free markets does certain things very well (incentives for innovation, productivity), but we need to respond to market failures (since markets are not automaticly infallible). There is a tendency in free market systems to over time result in instutionalisation of concentrations of wealth and knowledge. This constitutes both a moral and functional negative that representational government can counteract on the behalf of the people.

Certain types of services (i.e. healthcare) have low price elasticity of demand, which makes market failures likely. At the same time the consequence of institutionalized concentrations of wealth and knowledge have very real consequences (life or death, poor or good health, personal bankrupcy b/o sickness and lack of insurance) for the individual and society.

Certain types of values (i.e. the value of future non-destruction of the living environment on earth through the process Anthropogenic Global Warming) is not naturally commoditized or priced into other commodities on any type of unregulated “free” market.

These are some policy challenges as viewed by modern progressives. I believe there is a strong trend in modern progressivism to look for incentive-based or market based to solutions to these challenges (i.e. Cap&Trade), rather than old-style progressive solutions (nationalize, government planning of resources etc). I have also gotten the impression from reading about Obamas influence from his “Chicago” influences that he to a large extent wants to represent this trend policywise.

I think there are two long term political dangers for Republicans/Libertarians right now. The first danger is to simply reject that these policy challenges exist and assert the infallibility of free markets in selfregulating any human value or service. The second danger is pretending like todays choice is between free markets on the one hand and 60s & 70s style centrally planned, nationalized democratic socialism on the other.

These are just the kind of arguments coming from the republicans at the moment and they’re coming because they are already established by Hayek, Thatcher and Reagan; they are therefore easy to make and they will in the short-term lead to limited amounts of political success. In the long-term though, I believe this will turn out to be fighting todays policy battles with yesterdays weapons and only lead to further marginalization.

Thats a fresh idea with a potential to redraw the “battlefield” of american politics. I would add though that intellectual property rights are not only of interest to Hollywood and the music biz but also to the IT and software industries. In campaign politics as practised in the U.S. I would guess there are lot’s of sweet campaign dough to be lost? But maybe something like this would kill the perception (and in my view the reality) that the republican party is firmly in the lap of big business. And maybe the opposition to tax hikes would turn out be of more value to the industries than old style intellectual property rights anyway…

This could at the best be a mixed bag, given that the internet largely evolved from arpanet that was funded with government dough. As well as CERN guys on european [socialist ;)] government dough inventing the world wide web format (if memory serves me right). But if the ad campaign would focus on the transformative nature of wikipedia and facebook and other non-government individual initiatives I could see it work. Danger: the individual founders may with some likelyhood be progressives and could sabotage the message.

But unless it stays at “advocating” how would this not be in someway on the governments tab (targeted lowered taxes / deduction?) and not tinkering with market forces and individual freedom? Then it’s essentially indistinguishable from progressive policy except in what the kind of education money & tinkering the government chooses to apply.

Interesting, I myself believe strongly in the transformative power of the internet on human learning and knowledge and don’t find it impossible that the policy landscape could change over time in drastic ways…

Like I started out, really nice thoughtful post with many interesting thoughts and suggestions, even if i don’t agree to everything! My own two cents says republicans will spend some serious wilderness time and agree that they’ll have to over time redefine their coalition and the conservative tent and whether the tent will be called “conservative” at all…

Wow Conservatives are horrible human beings then. All the evil Bush did, just to spite the democrats.

Oh I thought that was True Scotsman. (Or were you intentionally making that allusion?)

As Sam avers “Conservative” as a label is an awfully unwieldy tent right now. Lots think they are but others are not.

Where did I say anything about ‘spite’? I said they found them unpalatable. As in, as bad as they thought some of Bush’s policies were, they figured the Democrats would be worse.

And judging by Obama’s first six months, they were right.

Excellent post.

And I couldn’t agree more for the need to dump the Religious Right, or perhaps incorporate them in the end-run to ‘religious freedom’, as an important first step.

What I hope to see in the Republican party is the beginning of a clear split between

  1. Candidates who actually believe, and want the government to sponsor, the religious philosophies they espouse. A surefire way to lose the middle, in my opinion.

  2. Candidates who don’t really get into it personally, but felt the need to play the part to pander to the RR. And therefore, would be willing to drop it if the wind began to shift.

Palin strikes me as someone in the first bucket. Blechh. Also Huckabee, for obvious reasons.