andros wrote:
Hey, might makes right, baby.
DS: I am all for protecting the environment, and endangered animals, but you have to weigh this up against the risk to humans.
No argument. I don’t think anyone here is seriously suggesting that humans should not be able to defend themselves against predators that pose a serious and immediate threat to them. (And yes, that includes predators getting too close to popular and habitual human recreation areas, as well.) What most of us seem to be taking exception to is the OP’s notion that we should just go out and off every shark or mountain lion we can find as a sort of pre-emptive strike. Or that we have some kind of natural right to live or travel anywhere we want and sweep all the dangerous animals out of our path so we can always be as secure from predators as if we were surrounded by 10,000 acres of brick and asphalt. If you can’t stand the idea that other animals might dare to challenge your God-given “rule” of every part of land and sea, then spend your life in a Houston condominium and exercise your feelings of innate superiority and dominion on the cockroaches, say I, because you don’t really belong out-of-doors.
One other final point about the number of shark attacks. The population in Florida has been growing a lot in recent years. The number of tourists crowding the beaches has been growing. Naturally, you would expect the number of shark attacks to grow.
I would also point out that, as of my last information, the shark population is rapidly dwindling to alarmingly low levels, in no small part due to the “kill them before they kill us” attitude. Fortunately, it seems that from the national media coverage I’ve seen so far that there’s at least more calm this time around than previous. I’ll see if I can dig up a cite/numbers of some sort.
Also, didn’t most of the attacks occur during the recent heat wave? I know it was sure as hell hot up here in Wisconsin two weeks ago…
The global shark population is dwindling for a number of reasons. One of the chief ones is Asian (primarily Chinese) appetite for shark fin’s soup, a traditional and very highly prized dish. After the fins are cut off a captured shark, the fish is thrown back into the sea to die. Curious, since a shark can feed a lot of mouths, and especially curious since shark fins are almost completely devoid of useful nutritional value. In Hong Kong there are entire streets of open-front stores packed to the rafters with potato sacks stuffed full of shark fins. Most of it is for shark fin dishes, some of it is used for traditional medicine (can’t decide which is sillier).
No doubt this news makes Wildest Bill ecstatic.
The sad thing is that some of these fins are kept for a long time, since they are more or less dried goods (gods, the stench in those districts!!). Most fins you can buy today are small and pathetic, but if you look at the older fins they tend to be much bigger (and much more expensive). I’ve seen shark fins as tall as I am (6’3") and more, all of them old. According to the shopkeepers, you simply can’t get large fins anymore, and if you could they would cost an absolute fortune because of their rarity today.
Looking at the fins available in stores today, it makes me wonder how it’s possible for humans to demolish an entire ecosystem for the sake of an idiotic dish that isn’t even particularly palatable.
Damaging attitudes like these will not be corrected by a bunch of cretins running around screaming “Let’s kill all the sharks/lions because a few surfers/hikers are killed every year by them!” What a mess.
Saw a really interesting article on how man can screw up an entire ecosystem. Apparently early caribbean settlers had a taste for sea turtles and hunted them nearly to extinction. The turtles used to live on algae that grew on the coral reefs. With the turtles gone the reefs got covered with ivy and died. This affected all the fish that lived in the reef. Now large parts of the caribbean are basically deserts.
Even if you don’t care about animals, you now have a situation where the people can’t catch fish to eat.
Listen I am not saying lets extinct them(even though I sorta say that). But I definetely think they should be managed better especially around swimming areas same with the mountain lions. Since they(mountain lions) are not allowed to be hunted in controlled number they really don’t have a fear of man anymore. Kinda of like a squirl will keep getting closer and closer the less it feel threatened by a human.
So since these lions are having no fear of humans they come closer and eventually they are going to feed on a human.
Alligators are another dangerous species. Matter of fact, I was almost eaten by one in Clear Creek(a river south of Houston) when I was water skiing one day. I called up the stupid game warden and told them what happened and asked them to destroy the gator or at least remove it and take somewhere where there are not so many people in the water. He said that is his natural habitat and was protected by the government.
I told him I paid a hell of lot more taxes than that stupid alligator why doesn’t the govt protect me? I finally told him if I see that gator again I am going to shoot him and he said if you do I will arrest you. I told him to do whatever you need to Jonny Ranger.
Dave S,
Thanks for your response you said the same thing I feel all except alot more eliquently. I mean getting a “kill order” from the stupid minister of enviroment after the shark had already attacked somebody is the lame crap I am talking about in this thread. If they had any sense or care about human life, the law should be you can IMMEDIATELY hunt kill a shark if it attacks someone. Period.
Like I said I don’t want to extinct animals but I do think they need to be managed better. And people shouldn’t be scared to shoot a animal that is attacking or fear of attack on a human out of fear of reprisal from the federal govt.
Let’s try this: post a fact relevant to your OP, and people will debate you on it.
So refute the evidence already linked above showing that sharks/mountain lions/etc pose essentially no appreciable threat to humans, as compared to lightning strikes.
So why aren’t you railing against the government for protecting lightning from your shotgun?
Haven’t you figured it out yet, WB? It’s the federal government’s intent to feed all tax paying citizens who can’t write a complete sentence or use proper grammer to vicious beasts, such as alligators, mountain lions, and sharks. A favorite shark-chow of the government is the tax paying creature who’s stupid enough to water ski with alligators. This food plan is called “Boosting Natural Selection.”
From what you say, though, we are doing exactly that. There are shark alarms, there are lifeguards, there are measures taken to reduce the risk to people in the water and warn them of the attacks.
Again, according to the link I posted above, 3 of the ten fatalities from unprovoked shark attacks in 2000 occurred in Australia. Australia had a total of 7 reported unprovoked attacks, so the fatality rate is high, but is 7 a high enough number to claim that greater protective measures need to be taken? It doesn’t seem so to me, but of course reasonable people may differ.
Ok sexy you got me on the complete sentence flame. But I did not know the alligator was under the interstate 45 bridge. I was skiing under the bridge and when I came out there were alot of boats stopped on the side. So I decided to really go for a hard cut and sure enough I crashed(happens everytime you try to show off you know).
Well anyway these people say look out for the gator. I say whatever there are no gators here. I look to the other side of the river and see a log or something floating in the river I thought than I look again and has two eyes and it is headed right for me. YIKES!
So I start swimming frantically for the boat which my friend is taking forever to come back around and get me. I swim harder and he(my friend) is almost there and the gator is almost to me. I am really freak’n now people shouting, “swim faster, swim faster don’t look back just swim!” So of course, I look back and see the sucker(gator) go under the water about 15 to 20 feet away from me. My heart is pounding like it has never pounded and I reach for the ski platform and pull myself up as fast as I can. I tell you what that last 10 seconds before I was getting on the boat I was horrified beyond belief. I just knew I was going to feel pain caused by the gator’s bite around my leg before getting pulled underwater and eaten.
So maybe the experience has tainted me a little towards violent predators because I don’t like em at all and I feel for anybody that has to go through the terror of being attacked by an animal that we have the technology to avoid.
Abe said:
Oh, I dunno. I kinda like shark fin soup. But I can’t eat it any more, for the reason you gave. I wish they could provide some shark fin that was packaged with the guarantee that the rest of the fish was used. Like dolphin-safe tuna. But they don’t.
And what you say abey if one of the surfers/hikers was your spouse or immediate family was violently killed, that year by some stupid fish that you never see anyway. “Oh well my SO or my mother fed one of those scavengers for the day what a great use of their life for the feeding of Mr. Jaws swimming through the water that day.” - Abe :rolleyes:
If your God didn’t want sharks eating people, maybe he should have made them herbivores, huh?
Or he would have gave man a brain to protect himself by contructing a bang stick. 
You still have yet to answer my challege:
[li] Show me a supported fact that says I am at any reasonable danger from sharks/mountain lions, as compared to the daily man-made dangers I face like automobile accidents, muggings, etc.[/li]
Tell me what you and our elected officials are currently doing to reduce our risk of being struck by lightning–something far more likely to strike me down.
Speaking as someone who knows people who have been attacked by bears, has been bluff charged by a bear himself, and who has seen what was left of a deer shortly after a mountain lion got ahold of it, I know that when I head off into the backcountry I am assuming a risk of becoming part of the food chain. I don’t have to be out there, and I don’t have to run those risks, but I choose to because I enjoy the activities that involve those risks.
As others have mentioned and given examples of, removal of a major predator from an ecosystem is a tremendous devastating force on that ecosystem. It is ridiculously short-sighted and arrogant to think that we can bend nature to our will now and not worry about the consequences later. While I understand and agree that reasonable restrictions are necessary for keeping predators out of built-up areas, it is not reasonable to clear purely recreational areas of the animals that are living there and helping to keep things balanced.
Incidentally, does anyone have readily available statistics of total yearly deaths occur during such activites as water sports (from drowing, boating accidents, etc.) and hiking/backpacking (exposure, heat stroke, lightning, etc.)? I’m curious to know just how much of the total risk the critters really pose.
Oh, hold on a sec.
Now, Bill, let me make sure I understand you.
You want to make sure that wherever humans want to be, there should be no dangerous anumals to threaten them?
Like, if you want to ski in a river, you want to ensure beforehand that there will be no gators in the water? Or barring that, upon finding one, you want it destroyed?
If you want to swim in the ocean, you want to mnake sure that all potentially dangerous ocean predators are removed first?
If you want to hike in the woods, you want to make sure that all the bears and gougs are destroyed first?
Is that really what you’re saying?
Er, “cougs,” that is.