Who is bad? Hitler? George Bush? Is anyone?

Great Debates
1

Just like the song says, I don’t know much about history. I’ve read one, count 'em, one book about the Nazis: Hitler’s Willing Executioners, by Daniel Goldhagen. Goldhagen said that the Germans in WW2 didn’t go along with the death camps out of fear of the Nazi tyranny: by and large, they thought killing all the Jews was a great idea. It was common sense to them that Jews were the twisted, corrupt enemy of all decency and civilization. Now, if he’s right, how can we say that the Nazis were bad, not just mistaken? A bad person is one who knowingly chooses to do bad things. If I thought that some people were that dangerous, I’d fight back and kill them too. It’s me or them, right?

That’s just the teaser to a more general question about evil. I’ve never met a bad guy who wears a black hat and twirls his mustache saying, “I’m evil and I’m proud!” People tend to do wrong and make lame excuses: “Everyone does it” . . . “That’s how you have to be in this world; you have to play the game” . . . “Of course I shot him; he dissed me!” They seem to believe their own excuses, too. Does that mean they’re off the hook, like a man who slipped on a banana peel and knocked someone into the wood chipper? Or do they somehow, sort of know deep down that their excuses are lame, and partial knowledge means partial responsibility? What about someone who knows he has a character flaw and struggles with it? On the one hand, he’s on the road to repentance, unlike Lame-Excuse-Man; but on the other hand, he’s more aware he’s doing wrong, so he’s more responsible for it. Do we have to get worse before we get better?

Anyone want to help make sense of this mess?

2

[QUOTE=coffeecat]
It was common sense to them that Jews were the twisted, corrupt enemy of all decency and civilization. Now, if he’s right, how can we say that the Nazis were bad, not just mistaken? A bad person is one who knowingly chooses to do bad things. If I thought that some people were that dangerous, I’d fight back and kill them too. It’s me or them, right?
[/quote]
Except that it doesn’t pass the “reasonable person” test. It wasn’t reasonable for them to believe such things, therefore it’s not a valid excuse.

[QUOTE=coffeecat]
They seem to believe their own excuses, too. Does that mean they’re off the hook, like a man who slipped on a banana peel and knocked someone into the wood chipper? Or do they somehow, sort of know deep down that their excuses are lame, and partial knowledge means partial responsibility?
[/quote]
Willful ignorance and willfull error are not a valid excuse.

[QUOTE=coffeecat]
What about someone who knows he has a character flaw and struggles with it? On the one hand, he’s on the road to repentance, unlike Lame-Excuse-Man; but on the other hand, he’s more aware he’s doing wrong, so he’s more responsible for it. Do we have to get worse before we get better?
[/quote]
No. It’s perfectly possible to realize that you are in the wrong and just stop. I’m rather suspicious of people who do awful things and claim that they couldn’t help themselves; it doesn’t ring true, most of the time.

3

[QUOTE=coffeecat]
Goldhagen said that the Germans in WW2 didn’t go along with the death camps out of fear of the Nazi tyranny: by and large, they thought killing all the Jews was a great idea.
[/QUOTE]

Goldhagen’s being a bit simplified here, but the general concept is wrong. Had you asked a German in 1937, “Should the government murder all the Jews in the world?” virtually all of them - even many with anti-Semitic feelings - would have found the thought repulsive. The Nazi advance towards outright genocide was a gradual one, sold to the public (to the extent they bothered mentioning it) as a series of necessary steps in response to threats to the German state.

The Nazis are rather easy to classify as evil, because in many respects they were probably the MOST evil regime of all time. Nazism rejected the very concept of fixed morality; to the true Nazi, “Right” and “wrong” were not menaingful concepts. The concept of a fixed right and wrong was itself rejected in favour of justifying any actions that supported the racial conflict that Germans naturally had with all other races (and that all races had with all other races, actually.) It’s hard to get more evil than a political philosophy that rejects the very existence of right and wrong, and does so consciously. It’s not that the Nazis mistakenly thought they were doing the right thing; they believed there was no such thing as the right thing, that all that mattered was racial survival.

In the case of the Nazis, actually, they DID wear the black hat, twirl their mustaches, and revel in their evil; I could post a hundred quotes from Nazi leadership where they openly reject morality and talk about the need for violence and murder and slaughter.

There’s a great comedy skit you can find around the 'net where an SS officer walks up to another and says “Hey, Hans, you know, I’ve noticed something… we’re got skulls on our caps. Doesn’t that mean we’re the bad guys?” Yeah, it did. They KNEW they were the bad guys, or at least that they had abandoned and pretense to an objective morality.

Now, I still think you’ve raised a good question all the same, because there aren’t a lot of regimes that actually took the Nazi position. There’s a lot of different kinds of evil. Some people are greedy, and hurt others out of avarice. Some people are mentally unstable. Some people are psychopaths, who feel no remorse or empathy for other humans. Some people are stupid. Some people are legitimately blinded by ideology. Some are vain.

4

I think maybe you wanted to ask who is evil. Lots of people are ‘bad’, but I think evil is a special word that has a place only in fairy tales.

Er, lots of people believe in relativism, and many of those people are liberal treehuggers who are the antithesis of evil.

5

[QUOTE=RickJay]
Goldhagen’s being a bit simplified here, but the general concept is wrong. Had you asked a German in 1937, “Should the government murder all the Jews in the world?” virtually all of them - even many with anti-Semitic feelings - would have found the thought repulsive. The Nazi advance towards outright genocide was a gradual one, sold to the public (to the extent they bothered mentioning it) as a series of necessary steps in response to threats to the German state.
[/QUOTE]

I agree. The rise of Nazi power in Germany is far more complicated than German antisemitism. It is much more important to understand the socio political climate that fostered the rise of a psychopath like Hitler and his Nazi regime. Hitler exploited German desperation and hopelessness to manipulate and gain complete control of the German people and justify institutional racism.

The reasons for Hitler’s psychopathic behavior and his irrational justification for the final solution are not mitigating circumstances. The Nazis were monsters. There is no excuse.

Whether it is a psychopath, a borderline personality, greediness, or a complete psychotic, nothing can excuse inhumane and cruel abuse of power or make it less unconscionable.

6

That’s not true at all. Hitler didn’t brainwash the Germans. The Germans loved to hear what he had to say. The desperation and hopelessness turned the Germans into barbaric animals, thirsty for blood and scapegoats. Hitler was just a spark in the parched forrest. Saying that it’s all Hitler’s fault is a bit of revisionism to make Germans less ashamed for themselves.

Incidentally, Muslims scapegoat Americans same as Germans scapegoated Jews. While Germans looked at their poverty and thought back to the heyday pre-WWI, Muslims look at their poverty and think back to their heyday a few centuries ago (which they’re taught in schools as if it was yesterday). They imagine their current predicament as incredible misfortune, and a certain instinct kicks in that makes them behave and think like animals.

Human instincts are perptually at work, which is why talking about ‘evil’ is a bit incorrect. But one should also recongize that understanding why people do things is certainly no excuse to let them do it.

7

[QUOTE=Alex_Dubinsky]
I think maybe you wanted to ask who is evil. Lots of people are ‘bad’, but I think evil is a special word that has a place only in fairy tales.
[/quote]
Why ? There are plenty of people who are just plain nasty. People who hurt others because they enjoy it, or are indifferent to other’s suffering if it gets them what they want. How is that not evil ?

[QUOTE=Alex_Dubinsky]
Er, lots of people believe in relativism, and many of those people are liberal treehuggers who are the antithesis of evil.
[/QUOTE]
What makes you say that ? And ‘treehugger’ is an insult more than a description; what exactly do you mean by it ?

And extreme moral relativism is always indifferent at best, and often an excuse for evil.

8

Alternatives existed. There were people in Germany (and other countries) who were spouting anti-semitic conspiracies. And there were also people who were talking sense. Germans chose to listen to the Nazis when they didn’t have to.

9

[QUOTE=Alex_Dubinsky]
That’s not true at all. Hitler didn’t brainwash the Germans. The Germans loved to hear what he had to say. The desperation and hopelessness turned the Germans into barbaric animals, thirsty for blood and scapegoats. Hitler was just a spark in the parched forrest. Saying that it’s all Hitler’s fault is a bit of revisionism to make Germans less ashamed for themselves.

Incidentally, Muslims scapegoat Americans same as Germans scapegoated Jews. While Germans looked at their poverty and thought back to the heyday pre-WWI, Muslims look at their poverty and think back to their heyday a few centuries ago (which they’re taught in schools as if it was yesterday). They imagine their current predicament as incredible misfortune, and a certain instinct kicks in that makes them behave and think like animals.

Human instincts are perptually at work, which is why talking about ‘evil’ is a bit incorrect. But one should also recongize that understanding why people do things is certainly no excuse to let them do it.
[/QUOTE]

I didn’t claim that Hitler brainwashed the Germans; although, he did propagate a perverse campaign against the Jews in the name of nationalism. I said that Hitler’s rise to power was a direct result of Germany’s economic, social, and political circumstances. It is important to understand the social circumstances that allowed Hitler to gain control of Germany and commit horrendous atrocities while most, not all, Germans and the world passively ignored what was happening.

10

[QUOTE=Alex_Dubinsky]

Human instincts are perptually at work, which is why talking about ‘evil’ is a bit incorrect. But one should also recongize that understanding why people do things is certainly no excuse to let them do it.
[/QUOTE]

One last thought. The five minute edit always passes me by.

I am not trying to excuse behavior only understand it.

There were some people who engaged in civil disobedience against the Nazi regime. Danish resistance smuggled most of the Jewish population out of Nazi controlled Denmark. My only point is that people tend to justify immoral situations because of social expectations and cognitive moral reasoning. There are some courageous people who do engage in direct defiance to a situation because it conflicts with their moral understanding.

11

[QUOTE=coffeecat]
Just like the song says, I don’t know much about history.

[/QUOTE]

You want a different playlist–“Every single one of us, the Devil inside.”

And it’s true. We are all capable of horrifying acts.
The instinct for this is how we survived the Stone Age.
The duality of Man’s Nature is a perpetual theme in art, music, religion, philosophy & psychology.

12

[QUOTE=unconventional]
I am not trying to excuse behavior only understand it.

There were some people who engaged in civil disobedience against the Nazi regime. Danish resistance smuggled most of the Jewish population out of Nazi controlled Denmark. My only point is that people tend to justify immoral situations because of social expectations and cognitive moral reasoning. There are some courageous people who do engage in direct defiance to a situation because it conflicts with their moral understanding.
[/QUOTE]

I think there’s a distinction between those who go along, and those who instigate. In my view, the Nazi hierarchy was indeed evil. They consciously and methodically went about murdering people by the millions. I don’t think that means that everyone who was in the Nazi party was evil, though. More likely, they were simply just going with the flow. Whether they agreed with the broad plan to get rid of Jews or others they saw as undesirable, or disagreed but did not have the courage to resist is hard to say. It’s extremely easy to jump on the bandwagon and go along - we place a high value on courage largely because it’s not a common attribute. For those who know the wrong and go along, there are all too many ways to justify their behavior. I know I have done things I regret because it was easiest to go along with the crowd, and I suspect that most people have as well. Fortunately, none of my actions rose to the level of causing bodily harm to anyone, but still, it’s pretty frightening how easy it is to justify bad decisions.

13

No time for a lengthy reply, but in Hitler’s case, let us not forget he wanted to rule the world. So, it was either all of us, or him. Also, don’t forget about the Night of the Long Knives when Hitler murdered all his top execs shortly after coming to power because they knew too much. All in all, I think you’d find that Hitler wasn’t such a nice guy.

14

[QUOTE=Alex_Dubinsky]
Er, lots of people believe in relativism, and many of those people are liberal treehuggers who are the antithesis of evil.
[/quote]

I think that very few people are actually moral relativists. That’s a slur that gets hurled at liberalswithout foundation. I think tribalism is more of the operative impulse with regard to the Nazis.

I think you’ve got this backwards. It’s Americans who are scapegoating and dehumanizing Muslims at the moment. And not for nothing, but we’re the ones shipping Muslims off to concentration camps. Much of the populace is fine with that, is fine with torturing and killing Muslims and a not insignificant amount believes that Islam is a mortal enemy of the US which needs to be eradicated from the earth.

15

[QUOTE=Public Animal No. 9]
Whether they agreed with the broad plan to get rid of Jews or others they saw as undesirable, or disagreed but did not have the courage to resist is hard to say. It’s extremely easy to jump on the bandwagon and go along - we place a high value on courage largely because it’s not a common attribute. For those who know the wrong and go along, there are all too many ways to justify their behavior.
[/QUOTE]

Mia Angelou asserts that courage is the most important virtue. It takes courage for anyone to change the way s/he thinks. I tend to agree. People kill all the time because they are following orders or going with the flow. It takes a certain level of moral decay to kill a powerless human being solely because of ethnicity.

There is no argument concerning the hideous, cruel, and sociopathic nature of the Third Reich. The more provocative question is why people accepted and ignored the Nazi atrocities while a small number of people actually did something to save human lives.

16

[QUOTE=coffeecat]

That’s just the teaser to a more general question about evil. I’ve never met a bad guy who wears a black hat and twirls his mustache saying, “I’m evil and I’m proud!” People tend to do wrong and make lame excuses: “Everyone does it” . . . “That’s how you have to be in this world; you have to play the game” . . . “Of course I shot him; he dissed me!” They seem to believe their own excuses, too. Does that mean they’re off the hook, like a man who slipped on a banana peel and knocked someone into the wood chipper? Or do they somehow, sort of know deep down that their excuses are lame, and partial knowledge means partial responsibility? What about someone who knows he has a character flaw and struggles with it? On the one hand, he’s on the road to repentance, unlike Lame-Excuse-Man; but on the other hand, he’s more aware he’s doing wrong, so he’s more responsible for it. Do we have to get worse before we get better?

Anyone want to help make sense of this mess?
[/QUOTE]

Being a Christian I can only give an absolutist answer. I believe that causing harm to a person is wrong–as Jesus said–and that a person who causes harm on a grand scale is evil. I am not influenced by the excuse that the harmer may have thought he was doing right. The only valid definition of right comes from measuring the good or harm that an action causes to human beings. All people who are capable of thought have the obligation to measure their actions by that yardstick.

I should also say that I don’t view ignorance or incompetence as excuses. George W. Bush, for instance, does not weasle out by insisting that he honestly thought that invading Iraq and killing some of the Iraqi people would make things better for the Iraqi people. That would be like a man shooting his wife and then saying, “I honestly thought that the bullet would improve her health.”

17

[QUOTE=RickJay]
There’s a great comedy skit you can find around the 'net where an SS officer walks up to another and says “Hey, Hans, you know, I’ve noticed something… we’re got skulls on our caps. Doesn’t that mean we’re the bad guys?”
[/quote]
That Mitchell & Webb Look (2 min. 50 sec.).

Hilarious.

18

[QUOTE=coffeecat]
I’ve never met a bad guy who wears a black hat and twirls his mustache saying, “I’m evil and I’m proud!” People tend to do wrong and make lame excuses:
[/QUOTE]

There are plenty of such people around in prisons or living a lawless life on the mean streets. I have known them and talked with them at length. Some people take pride in being evil because they don’t stand a chance at the other alternatives. Fortunately, that type of habitual evil doesn’t lend itself to mass charisma and national leadership.

I have said a few times here that I don’t think the typical Germans were evil. Much of my life now is focused on Jewish friends and family but I have no doubt that I would be stoking the ovens with people given other circumstances. There is no way I would let my wife and daughters suffer for some moral stand that I took.

19

[QUOTE=unconventional]

There is no argument concerning the hideous, cruel, and sociopathic nature of the Third Reich. The more provocative question is why people accepted and ignored the Nazi atrocities while a small number of people actually did something to save human lives.
[/QUOTE]

Few people have the moral courage to defy authority even when there are no consequences to themselves, let alone when the consequences are potentially grave. We are, by and large, a species of sheep that may mutter quietly to ourselves about a government that goes too far but overall prefers to look the other way. Milgram will tell you more about why the Germans followed Hitler then Goldhagen ever will. There isn’t any point at which this stops. Contemporary Americans or Australians or French would today look the other way if muslims were being loaded into trains and sent to camps just as Germans did when it was jews. Not all of them, but enough that it would happen. The train workers might not like it but very few would refuse or resign and put their families in financial distress over it. They would just continue to do their job, just follow orders, and would sleep at night thinking it wasn’t their decision or responsibility.

20

My definition of evil is quite simple:

An evil person is someone who, for selfish reasons, commits evil acts, knowing that they’re wrong.

Applying this to Hitler, I would only really consider him evil if he knew that what he was saying was bullshit. If he really believed that the Jews were the spawn of evil, etc., then I would consider him only grossly misguided, not evil. He still did immeasurable evil acts, but if it truly was for a cause that he believed in, then he doesn’t pass the Evil Test.

As for someone like Saddam Hussein, I could see granting him the Evil title. He murdered countless people merely to gain and maintain wealth and power for himself. Can’t really see that he had any other motive beyond that. He must have known what he was doing was wrong, yet he still did it for personal gain. That’s evil.

Essentially, I see everyone committing horrific acts in the name of some (ostensibly ‘good’) cause as “misguided”. Sacrificing virgins to Aztec gods, or becoming a serial killer because God told you to do so, or bombing an abortion clinic-- these strike me as trying to do the right thing, but from a really fucked-up or insane perspective. Not evil. Only extreme, rational, and selfish acts count as evil to me. (note that while ‘evil’ people often pay lip service to some greater cause, only true believers are spared the ‘evil’ label from me).