There is no such thing as “grand scheme of things” and if there was, how good any group was wouldn’t matter anyhow. However, the point of the OP was which was more formidable. As in difficult to surmount, defeat, etc.
I took your metaphor to be in concordance to the OP’s question. You could compare SAS and SEALS teams, the SAS would probably defeat the SEALS. The SAS has outpreformed SEALS in similar missions before IIRC, and unless SEALS training and abilities has changed, probably do as well today.
The spirit of the OP’s post wasn’t about a SEAL vs the common guy, but SEALS vs what he thought was an elite force member. (CIA). It is obvious a reservist doesn’t have what it takes, and it wasn’t part of the OP.
My point (Re your metaphor) was that you cannot compare individuals to suggest the skills of a team. Piting Jordan VS Johnson is well and dandy if you are looking to see how good each of them are. Piting Jordan VS Johnson is pointless if you are trying to decide what team is better skilled as in Spartans VS Bulls (they still play for these teams right?).
Like I said though- the spirt of the OP was which was better “what he mistakened for a CIA op, think James Bond”, or a SEAL. Not which is better and has more a discernable difference in the real world- Fat lazy army reservist or a Fit, leathal killing machine SEAL.
Special Forces are exactly what the name implies. A force with heavy training to do a specialized task. Give them something else to do and they’ll be like fish out of water: SEAL’s in Panama when they were taking that airfield, forget the name.
An infantry squad of well trained Marines vs. a Squad of well trained SEAL’s where neither force has surprise and equal tactical advantages?
Would be fun to watch, that’s for sure.
Oh, and I’m not in awe, they’re just very good at what they are trained to do: small level attacks where stealth and manuverability are essential.
Marines are good at what we are trained to do: kick the door down, win the first few battles and then let the army mop up the rest and win the war. (or what it’s supposed to be:))
Epimetheus, what about my scenario? I’m not so sure the OP was necessarily thinking about James Bond. Do you deny that in some situations, the CIA op has a clear advantage? I like NotBob13’s comment.
plnnr accurately describes a successful CIA operative: …“he’s also the smartest person I’ve ever met in my life, and what’s more important, he can be incredibly charming. I’ve seen him talk to complete strangers at parties and within 5 minutes they’re opening up to him like they’ve known him all his life. His success in meeting and romancing gorgeous women is awe inspiring.” This is what the CIA does in the field, it gets people to do things they wouldn’t otherwise do. It’s certainly not just collecting information. The ability of CIA people to talk themselves out of dicey situations in legendary. Hence, in Jayrot’s scenario (“Choose 1 CIA operative and 1 SEAL at random. Send them both an email telling them to kill the other. Who wins?”) I’d put my money on the CIA guy. He’d recruit the Seal to work for him.
My brother-in-law’s brother-in-law was in Delta Force. He told me directly that Navy SEALS wash out of the training for Delta at a higher rate than any other particular serviceman – Ranger, Green Beret, etc. Make of that what you will.
1 Platoon of Abrams equiped 1st Armoured Division vs. 1 Platoon of SAS/Seals/Recon (your choice), on the open plains of Kansas.
You would be able to put the SEALs though a colander after it was over. To know who is “best” you have to posit the exact situation (equipment, location, knowledge, mission, etc). There are armoured guys as well trained at what they do as there are SEALs trained at what they do. Don’t kid yourself otherwise.
Delta Force is the US’s most equivalent unit to the SAS, it was set up in the 70’s (?) by an officer who had been a member of the SAS with the direct purpose of making an American equivalent.
Probably Sayeret Matkal (General Staff Recon), although the IDF also has its SEAL equivalent, Flotilla 13 of the Israeli Navy. From what I uinderstand, Matkal does “prestige” missions, often preparing several months in advance for every op, while Sh13 does quicker, simpler missions - including rapid-response stuff - at a much higher frequency, often several missions a week. Recently, they’ve picked up a reputation as the hardest working unit in the IDF.
Actually, the one that wins is the one played by the biggest male lead. So if Harrison Ford is playing the CIA guy, and say Sean Bean is playing the SEAL, the CIA guy will come up trumps in the final battle, and he will get the girl.
If the two male leads have equal billing (say Harrison Ford playing the CIA guy and ummm, Russell Crowe playing the SEAL) then they will be in conflict until final battle, in which each will use their respective talents to save the other, before they limp off supporting one another in a trio with the girl in between.
I think the Bullshit Quotient of this thread is off the charts.
The question is poorly phrased, the parameters are ill-defined, the responses lack cites and rely on samples of one, and thus they conclusions hold no water.
All of the special forces troops are close enough in overall ability that the difference will come down to unit leadership and individual competence, and how well that particular battle fits the skill set of the soldiers.
Canada, for example, has an elite force that almost no one knows about (JTF-2), but they are supremely kick-ass.
And of course, you can be as tough as you want, and it won’t help you if a Canadian sniper shoots you from 2 miles away. Canada has maybe the best snipers in the world.
And ‘CIA Operative’ is an almost meaningless phrase. What kind of operative? A ‘CIA Operative’ could be a guy with thick glasses reading foreign newspapers. Or a 55 year old diplomat collecting intelligence on the side. Or a political operative working with Green Berets to win the hearts and minds of the enemy.
[Hijack] I have seen on TV, and even met a few SAS members. What supprised me was that they were of fairly normal physique. These people were able to pass off as normal citizens in undercover operations without looking in any way dangerous.
Do the seals have similar characteristics, or are they more Ramboesque.
As to the OP, comparing SEALS to CIA agents is like comparing Star Destroyers to the Enterprise. (no one here really knows what either is capable of, or if they did wouldn’t be able to say due to security restrictions).
Things which were done by a unit five years ago are history. Special Ops is a darwinian sort of thing. The best survive, unless intelligence sends them in with bad information. They all of them die, good or bad. The best ones don’t stay the best for long. They do become instructors.
If you hear about it, it was a failure, and a bunch of good guys died. The successful special op is just a mystery to whoever it was that thought they had whatever they used to have. Now they don’t have it. And your country gets to express its sorrow over the bad news.
CIA ops (And there are fewer of them than people think) are different. If the bad guys find out what happened, it’s a failure. You don’t want them to know what it is they don’t have anymore until they get ready to use it. Killing a bunch of people is not going to slip by them. Killing one guy, maybe. But you don’t get into a fight with him. You poison him with ricin in a pellet you stick into him with an umbrella, as you walk by. A guy who can do that can take out a Navy Seal, or an SAS commando. You don’t fight fair.
Assassinating someone doesn’t take a great deal of skill, unless you have a really bad operations department. You plan it, so that it’s easy, and reliable. Killing a guy who is armed, and looking for you is a different thing entirely. A spook is not going to get into a stand up fight. He lost back when you found out he was coming. He went home, and told them the op was compromised. They changed the plan. Now they are framing you for the murder of the guy he did have to kill, when he was escaping.
So, the CIA guy probably can’t take on the Seal guy in a fight. But he probably knows ten or twelve other guys who are willing to take out the seal guy when they have an easy shot, and also willing to sit around a week or so waiting for that shot. The spook just hides, and he is real good at that.
Admiral Ami Ayalon, former Flotilla 13 commander, IDF Navy chief of staff, head of the Shin Bet and 5’8" in army boots once said that “short guys make better commandos because their brains are closer to their balls.”
