I used to know a guy who was a Navy Seal. He was one calm/formidable character. This guys forearms were as big as my thigh and his chest was probably a 55. No fat on the guy and he was 46 years old. He had seen plenty of live action in his days and he gave off the aura that nothing could happen that he wouldn’t be prepared for.
Now I hear CIA operatives are more secretive but not as hulky. I am not sure what the main differences are, but I’d think CIA operatives are just as formidable but ten times more cloak & dagger-like.
Does anyone know for sure? Who is more formidable?
My stepdad is a former SEAL. He is one of the few people in the world that I would never, not under any circumstances, want to piss off. I don’t care if he was tied down, gagged, and blindfolded…because I know that somehow, he would escape, and my life span would be drastically shortened. I have a good number of friends who are former Marines, and all that have met him are in fear/awe of him. Despite that, he is one of the nicest, most gentle men I have ever known in my life. But I still won’t piss him off.
Straight field of battle, the CIA operative doesn’t hold a candle to a SEAL. Not even close. But it’s sort of like comparing a bear to a an octopus. There are certainly situations where a CIA operative would be a lot more useful.
The Navy seals aren’t really recognized the most elite fighting force in the world, this title usually belongs to the British SAS, the elite force in the French foreign legion or one of the Israeli elite forces (I forget which one).
Not really- SEALS are bad ass, don’t get me wrong, but Ranger, Recon and SAS members trains just as heavily and are just as much as bad asses. I doubt very seriously you know any Marine Recon ops that are in “awe” of SEALS. Grudging respect perhaps. (I know this because in Basic one of my Drill Instructors was ex-Recon and out in the field one day he was talking about them and compared them to Recon training)
No Rambo shit either. Special Ops groups are taught to work as a team. Rambo didn’t work as a team now did he?
You would be surprised at how normal CIA operatives look. I don’t know any myself, nor have met any, but I have seen some specials on the CIA and read a few books and nothing I have seen nor read give the impression that the training is only slightly more advanced than FBI or police forces. (in combat training anyhow)
I would say it depends on the situation- Want to use espianoge to blackmail or bribe a possible contact in an enemy country? Use a CIA op. Want to send in an amphibious force to destroy an experimental ship/sub in an enemy harbor? Seal. Want to send some reconassance out in possible hostile country- Recon.
Special Ops are the best, and very good at what they do. But face it, in reality Rambo would die in 3 seconds. Nobody is that “good” and that “lucky”.
I read something suggesting the Russian Spetsnaz was considered one of the best in it’s times. Of course I am sure more people died in training than any other country. LOL
CIA officers, regardless of Tom Clancy’s Mr. Clark, are mostly not fighters. They are trained to defend themselves, much as police are, but the duties of the CIA involve recruiting agents (spies, moles, “filthy traitors,” etc.), sometimes working undercover themselves, and of course all the information-gathering that can be done from a distance, and passing information, analyzing information, and working with and advising foreign intelligence agencies.
The relative difference between Navy SEALS, SAS, and those sorts of guys is like the relative difference between Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson; maybe you can measure a slight difference, but if you go 1-on-1 with either man, you’ll never know what hit you.
Maybe. The measure of the skills of the SAS vs the SEALS is not on a 1 on 1 basis though. Rather on how well they work as a team, and their past history. Like a resume. That can be compared. Comparing groups to individuals like Jordan VS Johnson is not quite a fair analogy. How about comparing say, the Chiefs with the Raiders.
Many secret service operatives would perform extremely poorly in any combat situation as they are not usually choosen for their ability in combat.
Taking James Bonds organization -MI6 as an example, despite what the films would have you believe, many of it’s members have absolutely no aptitude for combat and only basic training in this area but they have skills that are far more useful in the field of espionage.
One of the main reaons that the SAS always comes out better in comparisions is that it is nearly always fighting somewhere around the world, meaning it’s memebers usually have more combat experince.
Plus the fact that they have gained a repuatation for being stupendously successful in operations (everybody remembers the embassy siege, but also on less publicized missions, for example when a team of about five SAS members held a position from an assault by several hundred armed Yemenese tribesmen)
I think the point was that if you (as in Joe Average) were to try and take on even one of these special ops, you wouldn’t notice much difference in how fast you got your ass handed to you.
In what situation? Do you think a person that fights amateur boxing could hold his own in a fistfight? A 20-30 year old SecOp? Maybe not. A 35+? yeah. I work with two guys that are large in shape and compete in IMAC. (6’4 220+lbs) I would wager that these guys, at around age 24-27, would hold a pretty good chance. Give em guns and put em on a battlefield and the SpecOps guy will dominate.
Special Ops members have specialized training- they train for special goals and they domiate at those goals. Some guys train to fight hand to hand 4-5 times a week for several hours a day, and have for years. They are not special ops, but they spend more time fighting and preping to fight hand to hand than a spec ops guy does. (who spends most of his time learning battlefield traning with a light to moderate level of hand to hand training at most)
I know- you said Joe Average. Which covers such a broad area I picked guys that are not weak, but not top in their field either. (I think one of the guys has won 3 out of 7 of his competitions, and one has only one 2 out of 6)
I consider a slight, non-aggressive man with no fighting experience below average or at least lower average.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Epimetheus *
**In what situation? Do you think a person that fights amateur boxing could hold his own in a fistfight? [/.QUOTE]
Epimetheus, I think you rally did miss my point. I’m not literally saying a Navy SEAL could always beat up an average joe; as you point out, a soldier without his buddies isn’t the same thing. That doesn’t have anything to do with anything.
My point, and the point to my metaphor, was that trying to decide who’s better between SEALs, SAS, JTF2, Spetznaz, or what have you is a case of argument by insignificant distinction. There’s simply not any difference between them that matters in the grand scheme of things.
Now, if you were to compare Navy SEALS to the combat capabilities to, say, infrantry reservists, that’s a valid distinction. Reserve infantry do not have the same capabilities as Navy SEALS; they’re less quaified, lack many of the skills SEALs have, and aren’t as experience, and those differences are very significant.
A relative of mine is in the clandestine services at the CIA (we think, the subject of “what do you do?” doesnt’ come up much), and he does not give the impression of being particularly fearsome. He’s of average size, and, on the few times that I’ve seen him do anything physical, he hasn’t impressed me too much (he has a wicked serve to my backhand, however). All that being said, he’s also the smartest person I’ve ever met in my life, and what’s more important, he can be incredibly charming. I’ve seen him talk to complete strangers at parties and within 5 minutes they’re opening up to him like they’ve known him all his life. His success in meeting and romancing gorgeous women is awe inspiring.
Choose 1 CIA operative and 1 SEAL at random. Send them both an email telling them to kill the other. They can’t recruit their buddies, but they can use any resources at their disposal. Who wins?
I’d go with the CIA agent with his skills of non-detection and possibly disguise. Of course if you stick em both in a ring, it won’t be much of a competition, but this isn’t exactly what I imagined the OP was asking. After all, he/she did mention the cloak and dagger aspect. Possibly analogous to a Ninja vs. a Karate expert.
In the e-mail scenerio quoted above, I’d bet on the CIA-op. Seals are trained to fight, the CIA is trained to know things. Things like how do I assanate someone, how do I pin it on a loner in Texas, etc.
