…it is reassuring to know, that 11 years later, that real ultimate power still exists, in all its glory.
That said, I would pay a MINT to see active-duty SEALs compete on American Ninja Warrior. Particularly if, were they unable to make it up the warped wall, they were allowed to detonate it with plastic explosives and then climb up the rubble.
These.
In a gladiatorial combat scenario in an arena, the SEAL is winning hands down. Firearms, swords, hand-to-hand, whatever.
In a no-rules scenario in public, the CIA operative has the upper hand. He can lure the SEAL into a power plant and then blow it up by hacking into the plant’s control systems and increasing fuel input.
OK, this website’s long dead. Archive.org to the rescue. It’s about Tony Poe, full name Anthony Poshepny, of Long Beach, California (surfer? must investigate), who apparently did do some Kurtz-like things with the Hmong in Laos during the Vietnam War. And now the Hmong live among [del]Normal Ordinary Responsible People[/del] White Americans, both in Minnesota and Montana, making wonderful food in cheap restaurants.
If I know the guy’s face and he is coming after me, I want the Seal on my side and the CIA guy coming after me. Definitely not the other way around. That presumes that our guy doesn’t have the whole organization with him and that he is operating alone.
Battle of Mirbat.
Oh man. Maybe it’s a caveat of how old this thread is, but a lot of the information put out in this thread is grimly wrong.
By “CIA operative”, I assume that we’re discussing CIA paramilitary officers, or members of the CIA’s Special Activities Division’s shadowy Special Operations Group (SAD/SOG).
In that case, the CIA operative is far superior every day of the week.
Navy SEALs have a mythical reputation to the American public, but, honestly, they’re no longer the cream of the crop. Yes, they’re extraordinarily tough, and quite certainly some of the finest soldiers in this day and age. But they’re hardly the best. Far from it.
Navy SEALs comprise a Tier-2 special operations force (also known as “white” units) and, as such, are fully equivalent in funding and capabilities (on paper) to every other Tier-2 SOF on the planet, and falls under command of USSOCOM. This includes the 75th Ranger Regiment, US Special Forces (Green Berets, because the US doesn’t use “Special Forces” as an umbrella term), Marine Raiders, Navy SWCC and EOD, and Air Force Pararescuemen. Foreign SOF equivalent to SEALs would be Dutch and Portuguese Marines (their Marines aren’t simply naval infantry like American Marines, but full-fledged commandos), British Royal Marines, German Fallschirmjäger, and many more. Even so, there’s considerable variety in quality and experience. For example, members of the 75th Ranger Regiment in its three main battalions see more combat on average than SEALs and Green Berets. Rangers have, comparatively, a very short training pipeline (8 weeks), but are expected to perform at an extremely high level consistently and perform both traditional light infantry roles and direct action missions (raids and seizure/retaking of areas).
Now, SEAL Team Six, nowadays called DEVGRU, are a Tier-1 asset (also known as Special Missions Units or “black” units, as the Tier system denotes only funding, on paper), recruited primarily from regular SEALs, SWCC or EOD members, and falls under command of JSOC. Essentially, it is the special operations unit for special operators. The best of the best, the elite of the elite, the top 1% of the top 1%. That’s why it was tasked with taking put Osama bin Laden. DEVGRU’s domestic counterparts would be the Army’s Delta Force, Regimental Reconnaissance Company, Intelligence Support Activity, and the Air Force’s 24th Special Tactics Squadron. Foreign counterparts would the British SAS and SBS, Norwegian FSK and MJK, South Korean 707th SMB, Swedish SOG, and so on. These are all Special Missions Units capable of carrying out clandestine, covert, and black operations, and a slew of other highly-dangerous and sensitive missions. They answer to very high positions. They are some of the deadliest soldiers in human history, and there’s no “best” among them. They regularly train with each other and perform operations together and have similar training and experience. Once upon a time, the SAS and SBS were the best. Now, they’re all on the same playing field.
Now, where does the CIA SAD/SOG fall on this spectrum, you ask? Well, it’s simple: it’s above all of it. That’s right. The reason for this is that the SAD/SOG recruits primarily from JSOC units, meaning that its recruits are almost always American Tier-1 operators. They get even further training in everything from shooting to hand-to-hand combat to assassination to HUMINT and SIGINT and a lot more. And also in whatever a CIA case officer would learn, meaning tradecraft and espionage (JSOC operators learn these skills in the military, but not to the extent of the CIA). Keep in mind how dangerous an individual Tier-1 operator already is, and the training they’ve already gone through to earn their position. Yet very few of them make the cut to become a CIA paramilitary operations officer. That should give you an idea of how dangerous a “CIA operative” really is. CIA SAD/SOG members are the ones running the CIA’s drone program. They’re the ones performing targeted killings all over the world. They’re the ones who set up shop in black sites and torture informants. They’re the ones sent into a hostile country before anyone else to establish an American presence, surpassing even the ISA in this regard. At most, only six SOG members are sent into the field at once because that’s all that’s needed.
So in a hypothetical death match, whether it be a shootout, a hand-to-hand battle, or a knife fight, the CIA guy wrecks shit. The Navy SEAL would actually be leftovers for him.
Mods, don’t lock this thread…ExtraThiccMayo brought something substantial to the table.
Welcome to the SDMB, btw.
Wasn’t planning to. I can’t guarantee that it’ll stay active; that’s up to you guys. But the bump is clearly more than just “hur hur obviously the tiger would eat both of them lol”, like we often get.
I went to Ft. Bragg in 1966 because all the other training centers for draftees were full. Spent ten weeks in tents, didn’t get evaced during the hurricane. All our cadre were temporarily assigned from the the 82nd Airborne. The training was done by the very same folks who trained the 82nd, and the 8th Special Forces. They also did airborne training for everyone who did airborne training. (Keep in mind I was a draftee buck private.) We had a master sergeant from the regular infantry training companies in the unit.
One of our 82nd DI’s was listening to our legend sharing from the various “elite” forces, and said “You never really know who the biggest badass is.” In our opinion, in any group of badasses this particular guy was probably a front rank sort of guy. So we asked him who was the biggest badass he knew about. He named our master sergeant. When we asked why, he said “[in Korea] He crawled a hundred yards through the mud, into a Chinese company encampment, and killed three guys with a bayonet without waking anyone else up.” after our impressed pause, he added, “then he opened fire from behind them while his company attacked from the other side.”
It might have been a tall tale. But the guy was pushing fifty, and still doing forced marches with eighteen year olds. He wasn’t in any sort of elite force. Regular army, infantry.
Tris
Impressing folks who actually do it is usually the best measure.
ExtraThiccMayo - thanks for your post.
You mention mostly western and European SOFs, at both tier I and tier II levels and how, in this era, there’s not a lot to choose among them - they’re all good.
What can be said about the SOFs of other nations, especially those nations traditionally not included in (m)any elite lists? Like Saudi Arabia or Turkey, or China and Pakistan. I guess one-on-one, a nation’s ‘best’ warrior would be pretty much equal to one of a competing nation’s. The systems in which they work, and the support available, must be hugely different though.
I knew a number of CIA folks when I worked for the State Department. Most of them would have had trouble whipping a kitten. Their forte is intelligence gathering, not tactical assault. There was one, however, who could probably have kicked any SEAL’s ass in a drinking contest.
They are two totally different jobs requiring very different skill sets. If by “formidable” you mean physical, the Seal easily gets the nod.
Well, sure, if you compare analysts with SEAL Team 6, then there’s no contest. If you compare a paramilitary officer that was almost certainly in an elite military unit before he changed careers you might have a different answer.
I get the feeling that a lot of people answering haven’t read the thread.
Damn, I totally forgot about that site. It’s still up, 16 years later too.
Hijack using a personal anecdote. After college, I had a part-time job as a doorman for an Annapolis bar. Marchincko was in one night, probably in town for something at the Naval Academy. After last call was over, I had to ask him and his buddy to leave.
I asked him politely…very politely.
Thighs like tree trunks and biceps like Rambo are all very well if you want to do a frontal assault but in fact its the scruffy looking skinny guy that you need to watch out for. I once worked behind the bar in a Hereford. A party of drunk public school types came in and it wasn’t long before there were signs of impending trouble.
Sitting near the back door were four skinny scruffy-looking guys, with some girls and the overgrown schoolboys decided to pick on them. I asked the landlord if we should call the police but he said no need. To my surprise the four guys left their unfinished pints and took the girls out the back - I remember that they just kind of vanished. I said to the landlord that I thought there was going to be a fight for sure - he shrugged and smiled; “SAS,” he said.
The point is that really tough guys walk away if they can - they have no need to prove themselves.
Yeah. To finish my story, Marchincko and his friend knocked back their pints and he said something like “Thanks for letting us finish our beers” and they left. It wasn’t like I was going to force the issue, so that was cool.
No new information about the Vietnam “tooth kill” - thanks for nothing, 16-years-later-Internet.