You make a point, but here were Pedro’s league ranks, in IP, during that stretch:
1997: 4th in NL
1998: 6th in AL
1999: 9th in AL
2000: 8th in AL
2001: 60th in AL
2002: 20th in AL
So yeah, towards the end of that run he definitely missed some starts, but I wouldn’t say he had an issue with IP, at least from 1997-2000. The blame for his relatively low IP compared with pitchers of the 60s and 70s is the change in usage of starting pitchers. Curt Schilling is considered to be a “horse” in terms of 90s/2000s starting pitchers, but his 268 IP in 1998 (the most in MLB in 10 years) would have only been 8th in 1970 NL, 6th in 1960 NL, and 6th in 1950 NL. Starters just don’t throw as many innings as they used to, no matter how durable the pitcher, so to hold this against Pedro is a bit unfair.
I would agree with your point if he were throwing league average IP with great ERA+ and ratios, but for 4 years he was near the top in terms of IP.
Without looking at any stats to back it up, I went with Christy Mathewson, although I almost went with the Big Train. I think upon further reflection I’d be more inclined to pick Walter Johnson, however. A case can certainly be made for either.
I’d recommend you not vote for Ryan, in that case.
Walter Johnson is a perfect example of someone I would timeline to hell. Had his best seasons in a pitcher’s league in a pitcher’s ballpark at a time when starters could throw tons of innings. Regress all of those and he falls behind the more modern collection (tho their stats probably got decentralized by pitching lights-out in a hitter’s era: in other words it is a bit easier to wildly exceed the average in a league with high ERA’s than it is in those with low ERA’s). I went with Maddux mainly because he was my favorite pitcher of all time and his peak is close enough to the competition that he has an argument (and on career value he has few peers).
Remember, we’re not discussing whether Pedro Martinez was a great pitcher. He was, that point is beyond question and anyone who says otherwise is a lunatic. The issue is whether he’s the greatest pitcher of all time. That’s a very different question indeed, and at that point whether or not he is a workhorse - like Seaver and Clemens and Gibson and Johnson were - starts to matter.
I voted for Nolan Ryan. A lot of it was based on nostalgia, but there’s also his crazy strikeout numbers, sustained dominance and, hello!! 7 no hitters. That record will never be broken. Nolan was also on some crap teams during his peak, which possibly hurt his Ws.
Ugh. The goal of baseball is not to strike people out - it’s to GET people out. And Ryan was only pretty good at that, all things considered.
Ryan did certain things well - he pitched a lot of innings, at a slightly above average rate, which is valuable in its own right. But he never was a dominant pitcher.
He never won a Cy Young award (OK, maybe he deserved it in '77), so it’s not like he was ever recognized as the best by the people who watched him play. Seaver, Carlton and Palmer were all generally thought of as better than him. Ryan can make up a little ground because he pitched for so long, but he was never the best pitcher in baseball.
Yes, he was fun to watch, and yes, he was a freak of nature - but he’s not anywhere near the conversation of best of all time.
Sorry for the mini-rant, this is one of my pet peeves.
I voted Tom Seaver, and was shocked to see that I was the first to do so.
I will admit that Walter Johnson and Cy Young might conceivably have a better claim on the title, but I think you have to separate dead-ball era pitchers from post-dead-ball era pitchers.
I have a much, much harder time distinguishing eras for pitchers than I do for hitters for some reason. So I’m going to error on the modern side and go with Maddux. It might actually be Clemens, but I’ll be damned if I’m voting for him.
Purely on the results, Clemens is the better of the two. (Not by much, and they’re both great, but…) So it all comes down to how much you discount for the steroids.
That his former teammate Ryan is outpolling him 9-1 is indeed shocking. I guess the way they finished their careers hurts Seaver (who also was born in the same year): Tom Terrific is injured in the '86 playoffs and hence doesn’t get a chance at some high-profile postseason glory (taking Al Nipper’s starts hopefully), while Ryan goes on to pitch another half a dozen years with several no-hitters in his 40’s.
Seaver doesn’t have the crazy old-timey numbers of the old-timers or the fresh-in-the-memory effect of guys like Clemens and Maddux. I don’t get the Nolan Ryan thing.
I am kind of surprised that Cy Young doesn’t have a single vote.
I don’t mean to shoot down anyone’s vote or anything but the support for Nolan Ryan is pretty mazing to me. Ryan isn’t just not the best starting pitcher of all time, he’s not even in the neighborhood of it. He had a great career and he belongs in the Hall of Fame and everything, but saying he’s the best starter of all time is like saying Dave Winfield is the best outfielder of all time. Nolan Ryan isn’t, IMHO, one of the twenty best starting pitchers of all time.
Anyway, to get off that and into something to actually add, I wonder if there is any other athlete who is more worshipped after his career than he was during it than Nolan Ryan. When he was pitching, nobody thought Nolan Ryan was even the best starting pitcher around at the time, and had you said he was the greatest pitcher of all time people would have laughed at you. That was a sentiment quite literally held by nobody inthe world outside of Ryan’s immediate family. He never won a Cy Young Award, though he came close a couple of times, because nobody thought he was good enough. Had you asked observers during his career who the best pitcher in baseball was, they would have said Tom Seaver, and then later Steve Carlton, and then Clemens. Ryan was substantially less regarded when he was actually pitching than Roy Halladay is now and nobody is proposing Halladay is the best pitcher ever.
The impression of Ryan when he was actually pitching was that he was a really intimidating and physically impressive pitcher, but that his control held him back from all-time greatness. He was sort of a freak, really, a guy with amazing strikeout totals and the no-hitters but who once walked more than two hundred men in a season. Later in his career - unusually - he actually become a better pitcher, which I guess is why people now remember him as being greater than Tom Seaver, which is really sort of amazing.
Anyways, I can’t think of any other player like that, at least not to the same extent. Some players get forgotten, but I cab’t think of another player so elevated to holy status who wasn’t regarded that way when they were active.
You did start hearing some GOAT talk about Ryan toward the end of his career, mostly because of his sheer longevity. When he no-hit the A’s at the age of 43 - when they were defending world champions - people were literally stunned. When he no-no’ed the Blue Jays a year later, that sealed the deal for a lot of people. When a man is the oldest player in the league and is dominating pennant and division winners, baseball fans begin to speak of the divine.
When Ryan was in his prime, he was regarded as a spectacular strikeout pitcher but not the first guy you’d want out there in a division race. By the time he was in his 40s with the career strikeout record in hand and still among the game’s elite, he was a monument to the game–but still not the first guy you’d want out there in a division race.
The farther you go back in time, the harder it is to judge pitching. Judging modern pitchers against Cy Young’s wins is like judging them against Old Hoss Radbourne’s 59 wins in a season.
It’s all how you define “greatest of all time.” Nolan Ryan was probably the most exciting pitcher of all time. He was certainly was one of the most unhittable pitchers of all time and one of the greatest strikeout pitchers of all time. And yeah, striking guys out is a goal of pitchers. Strikeouts are better than balls put in play.
Of the guys on the list, I don’t know enough about Johnson other than looking at stats. I can’t bring myself to vote for Clemens, even though he probably was technically the best pitcher. I love Maddux, but I’ll take Nolan’s Ks anyday.
