Its funny that you mention babe ruth. He was actually considered “black” at the time he played with enemy teams calling him names like nigger or saying they refuse to play with a black guy.
I’ve gotta go with minty on this one. Why promote balkanization?
Who’s the leading Irish-American intellectual?
Who’s the leading Appalachian intellectual?
Who’s the leading Hispanic intellectual?
Who’s the leading white intellectual?
Implicit in the OP is the supposition that there are so few black intellectuals (whatever “intellectual” means) that we can pick one as “the most outstanding” (whatever that means). It also seems to pre-suppose that such an intellectual is not just an intellectual, but is somehow a spokesperson or representative of all blacks (and by extension, that “Blacks” are a monolithic group in need of a spokesperson).
You might just as well have couched the question, “What black is the biggest credit to his race?” The OP is offensive for the same reason that question is offensive.
Spoke- and Minty, I totally reject your POV. E.g., here are some headlines from or about Ebony Magazine (which I found via google.com):
**THREE SIMMONS GRADUATES FEATURED IN EBONY MAGAZINE AS TOP BLACK BUSINESSWOMEN IN AMERICA. …
Anthony Jones landed a spot as one of Ebony magazine’s Top Black High School Seniors. Photo by Vasna Wilson
NLRB CHAIRMAN WILLIAM GOULD NAMED TO EBONY’S LIST OF TOP 100+ BLACK LEADERS
Ebony: TANTALIZING TREATS FROM Top Black Chefs**
Also, take a look at this web site: http://www.topblacks.com/index.html
It’s an all-Black site about “Top Blacks” in numourous fields of endeavor; Arts, Business, Education, Literature, Medicine, Religion, Science, Technology, etc.
From their Home Page:
**About TopBlacks
As the first online navigational guide to positive profiles of People of Color, TopBlacks plans to be the leading guide in terms of traffic, advertising, household / workplace user reach.
We are in the business of creating and managing Positive Profiles of People of Color…**
An interesting question is where the hyper-sensitivity comes from. One might guess that part of the cause is the current focus on victimology, rather than accomplishments. Some of us are more comfortable seeing James Byrd, Jr. as a poster child for mistreatment than seeing David Blackwell as a poster child for intellectual achievement.
You assume I think those examples are free from the intellectual apartheid that I decried earlier.
As a matter of fact, I do not.
I aspire to a colorblind society, not one in which it is acceptable to segregate anybody–even for the sake of some “Best Chefs!” list–on the basis of race.
To the extent that those headlines are from stories holding up the profiled persons as examples of minority achievement in the face of disadvantage and racism, I have no problem with them.
To the extent they are just an excuse to separate people on the basis of their ethnic background, I deplore them.
And how does “victimology” enter into this? Have I, or anybody else in this thread, said anything remotely disparaging about David Blackwell or the other intellectuals-who-happen-to-be-black that have been identified in this thread? And what does any of that have to do with a black man who was kidnapped, tied to the back of a truck, and dragged to death by three white supremacists?
december, ask yourself why you think of the folks listed in this thread as being among the leading black intellectuals in America rather than simply considering them among the leading intellectuals in America.
December,
I’d like to see a caring, hard-working, talented Black President of the USA. Or a caring, hard-working, talented Asian President. Or a caring, hard-working, talented gay President. (Not, of course, a caring, hard-working, talented woman President - they should stay at home and have babies*).
Of course you see my point.
I expect your point is that, following appalling treatment of blacks in the past, it is good for them to have role-models to help restore self-esteem, and encourage ambition.
I think there is a fine line between this hopeful idea and merely continuing the discrimination. (I’m not suggesting you’re discriminating.)
I like Minty Green’s colour-blind society. I like it a lot.
I once brought home a friend from school. He seemed nervous about meeting my parents. They were as friendly as always. When he’d left (in a happy mood), I asked my Mum why he had been tense. “Well, dear, some people don’t like other people if their skin colour is different.”
Didn’t understand that attitiude then, don’t understand it now.
*my apologies - I’m trying to highlight prejudice. As you know, the UK has a female Monarch, and has had a female Prime Minister. And quite right too.
I do too. However, in the real world, I disagree with spoke-. There is nothing objectionable about positive role models from a particular minority group. I will add that my immigrant grandmother was very proud of TV host Ed Sullivan, whose name she beleived was “Solomon.”
Minty, I’m sorry that my comment about victimology was unclear. Maybe I’ll start another thread if my thoughts ever reach a state of clarity.
Well at some point we’ve got to stop using terms like White/Black/Jewish when it’s not relevant (like most of the time).
Otherwise we’re stuck forever with discrimination (and terms like ‘minority group’ :eek: ).
For example, here in the UK we’ve stopped distinguishing between native Saxons and those accursed French Norman invaders. It only took a few centuries…
There is also the issue of tokenism.
I’m not Black, but I am a woman, and I hate to see those “top women in business” lists. For one thing, it highlights how poorly we are actually doing (there are a few women CEOs or top Fortune 100 management, but darn few). At the same time, it allows people to point to the women on those lists and say “see, we aren’t a sexist socieity…these women have made it to the top of their profession.”
One of the problems with the OP is it sounds a little too much like “see, I’m not a racist, I think there are a few smart black people.”
(december, please note, I did not call you a racist, nor did I imply you are a racist, just that the OP could be interpreted that way. I’ve been in enough of these threads with you to know you don’t consider yourself a racist, have plenty of friends who are “people of color,” etc. Also, this is not the PC police, just a possible “reading” of the OP you should be aware of.)
Spoke-, Minty and glee – What my comment was driving at was to question the reason you bave for being offended by discussion of Black intellectual role models. E.g., I ask the three of you:
Are you also offended by the folowoing?
[list][]affirmative action []Voting Rights Act []U.S. Commission on Civil Rights [} The extensive publicity given to the horrible murder of James Byrd, Jr. []The fuss over alleged bias against Black voters in Florida []Black studies programs []An all Black dormatory at Cornell U. (at the demand of Black students there) []Clinton’s explicit selection of a female Attorney-GeneralPressure for a Black NFL Head Coach
As long as there are things like BET, Topblack, or Ebony Magazine there will never be a Colorblind society.
Um, Amedeus, why do you think things like BET and Ebony were created? I’m not saying that BET or Ebony are perfect; however, I think I have to take issue with the erroneous assumption that it’s black people’s fault that we don’t have a colorblind society. Instead of pointing the finger at black media, folks need to start looking to the white-oriented media that systematically limits meaningful representation of the rich aspects of minority cultures. For the latest critique of that phenomenon I refer you to Spike Lee’s problematic yet brilliant movie “Bamboozled.”
As far as the OP is concerned, I have this to say. There are so many intellectuals out there black or otherwise who are not and probably never will be recognized by the mainstream because they don’t have the connections/credentials to get published or because they don’t want or need to be validated by the mainstream. These folks are ordinary, everyday kinds of folks: janitors, housekeeping assistants, factory workers, homeless folks, housewives, construction workers . . . Yes I can sit down and read bell hooks, and she writes some fascinating, insightful stuff, but knowledge that really strikes me is what I’ve learned from people who never will be published. For example, when I was in college there was this housekeeping assistant who would always address me as “Baby.” I’d introduced myself to her several times, and I saw her and talked to her everyday. I knew her name, and I wondered why she couldn’t remember mine. So finally one day I asked Ms. G. why she kept calling me “Baby,” and she had to break it down to my slow self. 
She said: “I call you baby because you are someone’s child.” What she was getting at was the historical underpinnings of the black practice of the extended family. Back during slavery, enslaved children were often sold away from their parents, and in general family members were sold away from each other. Wherever those who were sold away found themselves, they had to establish new ties to the people they interacted with at the new plantation they’d been sold to. Children had to find surrogate mothers; sisters had to find surrogate sisters; and brothers had to find surrogate brothers. Therefore, it is difficult for black people to trace precisely all of relatives. Every time I meet a black person, in the back of my mind I wonder if s/he is related to me. Ms. G. was also getting at the notion of solidarity with me. To her it is a sign of respect to my mother and how she raised me to respect my elders to acknowledge me as someone else’s child, and it also is a passing down of knowledge. It is Ms. G.'s expectation that someone out there will respect and treat her children as well as she respects and treats other folks children. I have far greater respect for people who have lived and survived the best way that they know how and who are willing to share their knowledge with me than for folks who have Ph.D.s. I’m not saying I don’t respect folks who have advanced degrees. I do. There’s theory and the practical application of theory. Of the two, I just priviledge the latter. Does this make sense?
Affirmative action: Depends on what you mean. A lot of conservatives misuse the “affirmative action” as a synonym for “quotas.” I most definitely do not support anything resembling a quota. If, on the other hand, you’re talking about affirmative action in the sense of recruiting at traditionally-ignored black colleges, I’m all for it.
Voting rights act: Race is a legitimate concern when the issue being addressed is racial discrimination. Yes, I fully support the VRA.
James Byrd: Huh? A guy gets tied to the back of a pickup and dragged to his death because of his race and this is not supposed to make the news? Remember, I said that society should be colorblind, not that it should turn a blind eye to incidents of racism.
Black voters in Florida: Same deal. Many voters alleged–and the task force report apparently confirms–that they faced special barriers to voting or were denied the opportunity to vote at all based on the color of their skin. There is no way that you can discuss such events without considering a voter’s race. That contrasts very sharply with something such as a “Top Chefs” list, in which race is totally irrelevant to a person’s abilities in the kitchen.
Black studies programs: Not my cup of tea, at least as they are currently run at most universities. When they function as self-esteem boosting cheerleading programs, they’re horrible and I oppose them. However, it is a legitimate area of academic interest, and scholars such as West and Gates are quite justified in studying the experiences of black people in America and elsewhere. That is no different than a history professor who specializes in, for instance, Russian or Jewish culture and history.
All-black dorms: Disgusting. Not to mention illegal under the Fair Housing Act, and almost certainly the Civil Rights Act.
Clinton choosing a woman for AG: I appreciate the desire to increase female and minority membership in leadership positions, both in the executive branch and the judiciary. However, doing so by restricting eligibility for a specific position to candidates of a particular race or gender is totally wrong. That goes for both Janet Reno and Clarence Thomas, btw.
Pressure for a black NFL coach: Minorities are clearly underrepresented in head coaching positions. It’s possible that there just aren’t any qualified black coaches available, but I seriously doubt it. If there are qualified black coaches out there and they are not getting the chance to coach because of the color of their skin, then such pressure is totally appropriate.
December, it might help clear the air quite a bit if you could explain in a little more depth just why you posted the OP. What sort of debate and enlightenment were you hoping to encourage?
ElvisL1ves wrote
December, it might help clear the air quite a bit if you could explain in a little more depth just why you posted the OP. What sort of debate and enlightenment were you hoping to encourage?
I was hoping to see names of leading Black intellectuals. (Thanks to posters who provided same.) I was hoping to focus the panel on Black intellectual achievement, which IMHO receives less attention than it ought to. In particular, I believe that Black culture in America has a tendency to be anti-intellectual, a tendency that harms Black children. I was hoping to find people who share my high opinion of Sowell, and I was prepared to debate those who disagree with me about him.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by minty green *
**…Voting rights act: Race is a legitimate concern when the issue being addressed is racial discrimination. Yes, I fully support the VRA.
James Byrd: Huh? A guy gets tied to the back of a pickup and dragged to his death because of his race and this is not supposed to make the news? Remember, I said that society should be colorblind, not that it should turn a blind eye to incidents of racism.
Black voters in Florida: Same deal. Many voters alleged–and the task force report apparently confirms–that they faced special barriers to voting or were denied the opportunity to vote at all based on the color of their skin. There is no way that you can discuss such events without considering a voter’s race. That contrasts very sharply with something such as a “Top Chefs” list, in which race is totally irrelevant to a person’s abilities in the kitchen…**
Minty, thank you for your response. I have no particular disagreement with your feelings on this list of issues.
The list was meant to call into question the concept that balkanization is automatically offensive. Each issue involves some aspect of balkanization, but not all of them offend you. Why are you (and perhaps glee and spoke-) offended by a Black organizaiton that publicizes a list of Black Chefs, but you support an effort to promote a Black football coach? My guess is that when it comes to race, you’re more accustomed to dealing with problems than with opportunities.
I was raised on the theory that catching flies with honey was more effective than vinegar. E.g., I was appalled by the James Byrd murder and think the publicity it received was totally appropriate. Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean that the Byrd publicity was especially beneficial to civil rights. I actually think that publicizing successful Blacks in various fields will wind up doing more good than the publicity over Byrd.
Based on what I read, many of today’s civil rights battles are focused on fighting an enemy or an evil. Some of these battles are over unimportant symbolic issues. However, fighting the devil is great for demogogues looking for political or financial support. Consider the shameful NAACP ad that virtually blamed George Bush for the Byrd murder. Look at the obloquy heaped on Republicans for the South Carolina flag, evne though its importance was purely sybolic, and even though the flag had been adopted by a Democratic governor and was being maintained by a "Democratic governor.
This negative approach to civil rights is great for helping liberals feel superior and it’s great for Democratic political campaigns, but I think that that a positive approach would do more good for African-Americans.
I suspect that another possible reason why minty, glee and spoke- were offended by a topic of Black intellectuals is that it isn’t politically correct to criticize minority groups in any way, or to even raise a topic that might lead to criticism. P.C. says that all problems of minority groups are the fault of those outside the group.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by december *
Spoke-, Minty and glee – What my comment was driving at was to question the reason you have for being offended by discussion of Black intellectual role models. E.g., I ask the three of you:
Are you also offended by the following?
[list][li]affirmative action []Voting Rights Act []U.S. Commission on Civil Rights [} The extensive publicity given to the horrible murder of James Byrd, Jr. []The fuss over alleged bias against Black voters in Florida []Black studies programs []An all Black dormatory at Cornell U. (at the demand of Black students there) []Clinton’s explicit selection of a female Attorney-General[]Pressure for a Black NFL Head Coach [/li][/QUOTE]
Well actually I didn’t say I was offended. I said to you:
‘I expect your point is that, following appalling treatment of blacks in the past, it is good for them to have role-models to help restore self-esteem, and encourage ambition.
I think there is a fine line between this hopeful idea and merely continuing the discrimination. (I’m not suggesting you’re discriminating.)’
Ok, let’s take your list (remember I’m posting from England, so please excuse any lack of US knowledge).
affirmative action:
it is important to tackle discrimination (against everyone). If you have a decades-old system of successful prejudice, perhaps you need this artifice for a while, before returning to competition based purely on merit.
N.B. This is a double-edged sword, since it is discriminatory in itself.
Voting Rights Act:
OK, just found it (isn’t the Web WONDERFUL!).
If the ACLU backs it, so do I.
U.S. Commission on Civil Rights:
OK, just found it (see above!).
Sounds good to me. Won’t it help everyone who’s a victim of discrimination?
In Zimbabwe at present a racist (black) Government is illegally confiscating (white) farmlands. The ACLU and Civil Rights Commission would condemn that instantly.
The extensive publicity given to the horrible murder of James Byrd, Jr. :
Don’t understand this one. Would it make any difference if some black people tortured and killed a white victim?
The fuss over alleged bias against Black voters in Florida:
What do you object to - the fuss? The fact that most Black people vote Democrat?
Would it make any difference to you if Democrats were alleged to have disenfranchised white voters?
Here’s one for you - if Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris confess to massive vote-rigging and electoral fraud, should President Bush resign?
Black studies programs:
The first 3 references I found were:
- a paper that used data from the National Black Political Study, to explore the depth of feminist attitudes among African American women;
- “The Internet in Cape Verde: Telecommunications Policy and Development in an African Nation”
- an introductory course to the general area of African American and African Studies. Beginning with ancient African civilizations, the course covers important aspects of Black history–focusing on specific periods in the historical, social, and cultural development of Black people
As long as they’re factual I don’t see a problem. At school, I learnt long lists of English Monarchs by heart, which was an incredible waste of time.
An all Black dormitory at Cornell U. (at the demand of Black students there):
Don’t like this at all. I think only sex discrimination is acceptable here.
Clinton’s explicit selection of a female Attorney-General:
Was she the best person for the job? Did he particularly want a woman’s perspective? (Why are all US Presidents white, male, Christian, tall, rich, good on TV and heterosexual?)
Pressure for a Black NFL Head Coach:
Don’t you mean pressure not to have a black quarterback, let alone a Head Coach? (When I first watched American Football, there weren’t any black quarterbacks. Why was that, then?)
Just seen your latest post:
OK, the KKK are completely wrong.
Hey, I criticised a minority group!
I’m not PC then (at least according to your definition).
My definition of PC is ‘trying to avoid discrimination in any form.’
december: *I was hoping to focus the panel on Black intellectual achievement, which IMHO receives less attention than it ought to. In particular, I believe that Black culture in America has a tendency to be anti-intellectual, a tendency that harms Black children. I was hoping to find people who share my high opinion of Sowell, and I was prepared to debate those who disagree with me about him. *
Dog my cats, december, that’s at least three separate subjects worthy of a major debate apiece right there. Maybe part of the problem we’ve been having with this thread is the persistent lack of focus that this exemplifies. Perhaps you should decide whether you want to talk about
-
Black intellectual achievement in America, why it should be treated as a separate category of intellectual achievement, whether and why it receives less attention than it ought to (we’ve already done a bit of this in the thread so far, I think);
-
Anti-intellectualism in black culture in America, whether it is more present in black culture than in other segments of American culture, its effects with regard to black children in particular;
-
The qualities and defects of Thomas Sowell as an intellectual.
I really think you should pick one of the above, or a similarly focused related topic, and ask respondents to concentrate on it. As it is, I think you’ll just get minor disagreements on an endless variety of digressions.
I suspect that another possible reason why minty, glee and spoke- were offended by a topic of Black intellectuals is that it isn’t politically correct to criticize minority groups in any way, or to even raise a topic that might lead to criticism.
More fuzzy all-over-the-place thinking. What makes you connect the topic of black intellectuals with criticizing a minority group? And why are you second-guessing the reasons why minty, glee, and spoke- objected to your topic, when they already explained to you what those reasons were? That’s no more valid or useful than it would be for me to say “I suspect that december started a thread praising black intellectuals to provide him with some plausible cover for attempts to denigrate blacks in general.” We’re having enough trouble sorting out the actual explicit statements in this discussion without trying to keep track of all the possible subtexts too, wouldn’t you say?
december: Kimstu already said pretty much everything I wanted to, so I won’t double up on his post too much. But I am certainly not offended by any of the restated issues your OP, and am mildly interested in discussing them. (Predictably, I probably have a different take on them than you. ;)) In fact, if you had simply asked “Who is an African-American of significant intellectual achievement who can serve as a role model for children?” I would have happily dived into the subject. But that question is significantly different from the one in the OP, which (to my eyes) asked “Who is a really smart black guy?” Treating people seperately on the basis of race requires a legitimate justification before I am willing to treat the separation legitimately.
december said:
". . . In particular, I believe that Black culture in America has a tendency to be anti-intellectual, a tendency that harms Black children. . . . "
I don’t know where this debate is going, if it’s going anyway, but since this was mentioned, I would like some clarification on it.