DSeid, thanks for the broadening. That is, indeed part of what I was trying to say; sometimes I’m not so great at articulating exactly what I’m getting at, especially when sleep-deprived. Further clarification:
The trouble I have with this is that while a very small minority within the opporessed minority are the ones committing acts of terrorism, what unfortunately tends to happen is that all members of the oppressed group are then tarred with the same brush. I’ve said similar things about the Palestinians in threads on the Middle East (my nice Jewish family now thinks I’m some sort of wacko Islamist, but really I’m just a hippie chick with a slightly wider historical background), and the Chechens are an excellent example of this phenomenon. (BTW, no Chechen group ever claimed responsibility for the apartment bombings in Moscow, although generally the Chechen rebel forces do claim responsibility for whatever havoc they wreak. There are some reasonable, although as yet unproven, rumors that the Moscow apartment bombings were actually engineered by Russian internal security forces to create an excuse to resume bombing the crap out of Chechnya.)
I agree that generally acts of terrorism backfire in terms of creating public sympathy for the plight of the oppressed group. It sucks that some extremists feel that the best or only way to draw world attention to their cause is by murdering innocent people. It’s certainly not a very effective marketing technique, but ya gotta admit that it does draw attention in a much more headline-grabbing way than, say, circulating petitions or lobbying the U.N.
I disagree, however, that the justness of the cause becomes irrelevant if terrorism is committed in its furtherance. It’s damn relevant in deciding how the non-terrorist majority of the minority should be treated after the terorists are dealt with (or in the meantime, for that matter). They shouldn’t lose their right to basic justice and human dignity just because a few of their brethren are murdering nutcases. So how to achieve that?
Elenfair, get real, the lack or percieved lack of services in Ontario for Canadians of French origin in the French language hardly merits a nomination for the most screwed minority in the world. I wouldn’t even consider the far more serious situation of Anglo-Quebecers who face convictions and fines for conducting business in English.
With regard to peoples who have been wiped out, I believe the Beotucks of Newfoundland are now extinct.
Eva, Sorry not to respond earlier but I like my weekends off.
I reread my original post:
and realize that I should have worded it differently. Sorry for any angst this may have caused. Still, the wording of your question does leave itself open to the question I was trying to ask. “what’s the difference between undeservedly and deservedly screwed?” I wasn’t really trying to take the thread in an entirely different direction, rather I was seeing if anyone could come up with “justification.” Several people have spoken. I can’t say I agree, but this is Great Debates.
In any case you seem to have done well with this thread, congratulations.
Now my own thoughts:
I really don’t think that we can assign a “winner.” History is written by the winners, revisionist history is written by the survivors (this is, of course not entirely true but bear with me). If an ethnic/ religious group is entirely wiped off the map who will know in 200 years? The Roma, Jews, Armenians, American Indians, etc. (to name a few) certainly have been treated poorly but some of them have survived to fill the rest of us in. I suppose that sometime in the past some group has been entirely obliterated. With a half-decent cover-up and a few decades to allow the conquers to forget and…the event “never happened.”
Threadkiller, I’ll respond in more detail later (am at work busy helping the huddled masses to breathe free), but here’s a blurb from yesterday’s Radio Free Europe Newsline (www.rferl.org) by Vladimir Putin on the Chechens:
“The Russian president also addressed the country’s ongoing campaign in the breakaway republic of Chechnya. Despite past attempts by Russian officials to portray the war as an antiterrorism campaign, Putin said today that the vilification of Chechen civilians was an unfortunate outgrowth of the war and a problem that should be countered. “As far as the negative image of Chechens is concerned, the Chechen people are not to blame for anything. I think this is the fault of the federal center that the Chechen people were left to the mercy of fate at some point in time. Yes, unfortunately, this image exists. Our task is to destroy this image [of a Chechen] as an enemy, [as] a terrorist,” Putin said.”
Thought it was very interesting that even Putin was willing to admit this publicly. More later…
>Nearly six million dead in the Holocaust, a million
>killed by the Romans, 300,000 dead in Russian
>pogroms, thousands killed during the Crusades,
>Black Death, and Inquisition, and uprooting from
>their homeland by Assyrians, Babylonians, etc.
I agree with Daoloth. Jews seem to be the most persecuted minority. It’s truly amazing that their cultural and religious identity still exists after all of this. They seem to go on with a sort of undying hope. I have a great deal of respect for them even though I’m not Jewish.
On atheists being the most persecuted (I don’t approve of it, by the way) I would say it doesn’t come close. George Bush Sr. may have said those words (and I don’t agree with them), but that’s all they were. Words. Suppose Bush did in fact say, “No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.” So what? I agree that such a statement is not a very nice thing to say, but it doesn’t even begin to compare to the horrors that the Jews were subjected to.
On noting the lack of atheists committing crimes, the examples Pol Pot, Mao, and Stalin are good to bring up. I think we have to take into account that atheism is a relatively uncommon belief system. Whether or not atheists are more law-abiding would take a substantial amount of historical work, and I’m not sure if anyone has done that to a sufficient extent. My views? I think that we are all human, and I suspect that religious types aren’t more ethical than atheists, and that atheists aren’t more ethical than their religious counterparts.
Wade, The Jewish figures are bad, and “win” for length of persecution, but not for absolute numbers.
The African slave trade: 20 million were taked from their homes in operations that destroyed entire tribes and their cultures. 10 million of them are estimated to have died on “death marches” to the ships. Another 1 - 2 million are estimated to have died during “Middle Passage” to America. The surviviors had lives of slavery for them and their descendents for generations.
The Native American tragedy: Best estimates were that the native American population was about 53.9 million in 1492. By 1650 it is estimated that only 5.6 million survived.
DSeid- the Jewish figures “are bad”? In what way? A David Irving way, perhaps?
To add to the Native American tragedy- remember the role of disease. Furthermore, it’s hard to come upon a conclusive “best estimate,” although 55 million seems a good median.
No one has mentioned the Coptic Egyptians which I am. The Copts are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians (this is genetically proven) who are also Orthodox Christians. The Coptic Orthodox Church, founded by St. Mark, is considered to be the oldest continuous Christian denomination still in existence.
When the Muslim invaders conquered Egypt, the native Egyptians (the Copts) were given three options: 1) convert to Islam, 2) pay a fee if you want to stay Christian, 3) or die. Muslim men are allowed to marry Christian women but Christian men may not marry Muslim women. Since the Muslim occupation began, millions of Copts have been killed. The people who once were nearly 100% of the Egyptian population are now less than 10% of the population.
A priest that visited my church last year had actually been the priest in a small Egyptian town which was rocked by religios violence. His church was being attacked by Muslim Fundamentalists. At one point this priest carried an unloaded gun to scare away these terrorists. (After knowing this man I don’t think he would’ve even known how to shoot a gun). This is one example and here is a link to others:
The Copts are a decidedly non-violent people who have been subjected to genocidal hatred, have been religiously persecuted, have had their homeland of thousands of years taken from them, are segregated in schools, are forced to endure the prominence of another religion. The call for prayer (As Christians we do not recognize a Muslim call for prayer) is repeated five times per day. As the only Christian youth in my class at a private British academy, I was forced to leave my classroom each day when a Muslim instructor would come to teach the Koran to my friends. My older siblings were all forced to learn Arabic writing by copying the Koran.
Its the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Its a sad fact, that world concern for the oppressed primarily goes to those who stir up some shit . Those who silently get slaughtered/marginalized do not attract media attention. Doesn’t quite seem right to me. You and your people ** Mambo** have my sympathy for what its worth.
Most unjustly screwed ever: Jews especially during WW2
Most unjustly screwed presently: Palestinians…however its okay to screw them since they’re all terrorists…and its so veryyyyy politically incorrect and hugely antisemitic to rank Palestinians above others in such unjustly screwed ranking discussions (the height of unjust screwment eh?)
