Who owns the Bottom of the River?

[chacoguy]

I found this.

The thing is that it varies wildly. Here, in Durango, the City owns the bottom of the river. In Utah, the State owned the river bottoms, up to the High Water lines.

I’m trying to figure out the legality of putting up a tent on a sandbar, in the middle of the Platte River, for the Eclipse.

[chacoguy]

RIVER, mods, please fix.

[Chronos]

[Moderating]
Fixed. And here I thought that “the Eiver” would turn out to be a river in Germany, or something.

[steatopygia]

Is the sandbar permanent? If so, it would be treated like an island. Are there similar islands in the Platte? If so who owns them?
If the sandbar is temporary, is it surrounded by private property? I think that the answer is going to depend on who you are likely to bother by putting up your tent.
Nobody around? No problem. In the middle of a busy public park? Maybe a problem.

[running_coach]

@Chronos

[Moderating]
Fixed. And here I thought that “the Eiver” would turn out to be a river in Germany, or something.

It’s a driving assistance app.

eiver is the first driving assistant app that really rewards GOOD drivers.

And that is spelled all lower-case.

[mind_the_gap]

Gatopescado owns the bottom of the river of course…

[engineer_comp_geek]

IANAL, but here’s my understanding of it.

Generally speaking, most states (I think?) allow right of passage along navigable waterways, even if that waterway goes through private property. This means that if you are canoeing, for example, you have the right to navigate your canoe along the Platte River. If there’s a sandbar blocking your path, you have the right to portage your canoe around or over the sandbar. The same goes for other obstacles. If there is something blocking your canoe and you need to drag it up onto the shore onto private property to get around the obstacle, that is not considered to be trespassing.

This is generally only a right of passage though. If you stop on the shore to rest and that shore is on private property, that’s trespassing. Similarly, if you stop and camp on a sandbar and that part of the river is owned by someone, that’s trespassing. Even if you drop anchor and stay in your canoe, that’s trespassing (you’re stopping, not navigating). If you are dragging your canoe around an obstacle, you only have the right to do what is necessary to navigate the waterway. So you can drag your canoe over a section of shore to get around an obstacle, but you can’t stop and camp there because of the obstacle as camping isn’t necessary for travel and that would be trespassing. Also, if the sandbar isn’t blocking your path, there’s no justification for trespassing on it in order to navigate the waterway, so that would also be trespassing.

The state’s department of natural resources should be able to tell you what the rules are with state-owned sandbars on the Platte River.

[bob_2]

@engineer_comp_geek

The state’s department of natural resources should be able to tell you what the rules are with state-owned sandbars on the Platte River.

That takes us back to the old problem of asking and being turned down. Most of us discovered at some time in our youths that If you did something wrong, where there was no clear rule against it, you usually got away with it. Breaking a law or rule that you clearly knew about was much worse.

I suggest that the OP camps out on the sandbar and if some official tells him to move on - just pack up and go. I doubt that anyone would actually know if he is there for one night. Discretion would be sensible though - taking a bunch of mates, building a bonfire and having a party may be asking for trouble.

[kayaker]

Is flash-flooding a concern?

I’ve camped on a riverbank where the water’s depth varied considerably overnight.

[Ludovic]

@kayaker

Is flash-flooding a concern?

I’ve camped on a riverbank where the water’s depth varied considerably overnight.

This. If it’s a temporary sandbar, then by definition it occasionally gets washed over.

[bob_2]

@Ludovic

This. If it’s a temporary sandbar, then by definition it occasionally gets washed over.

I had a look at Google Earth - that river is more sandbar than water.

[md2000]

@bob_2

I had a look at Google Earth - that river is more sandbar than water.

Maybe that depends on the season. What I read says that the state owns the river and banks up to the high-water mark (low water mark?). They hold them in trust for the

Generally, AFAIK, IANAL, the ownership extends to the river bank and the government “owns” the waterway. …which does not answer the question of what happens as the river bank moves or a sand bar pops up.

In Georgia, for example: http://www.ga-lawyers.pro/Zoning-and-Land-Use-General/WATER-BOUNDARIES-WHAT-ARE-YOUR-RIGHTS-AND-LIABILITIES.shtml

If the current changes gradually, then the boundary line changes as well. O.C.G.A. § 44-8-2. On the other hand, if the channel changes suddenly, the boundary remains where it was. See the discussion of accretion and avulsion, below.

There’s a number of places, particularly the Mississippi, where a small chunk of one state is across the river from where it should be. But that is not so much the river moving, as re-routing so a high and dry piece of land is now on the other side.

On such trivialities are fine points of law and lawyer incomes made.

http://www.onthecommons.org/who-owns-river#sthash.vWfxnFK9.dpbs

This article suggests any river capable of being rafted is “navigable” whereas the Georgia link suggests only those with a normally laden cargo boat qualify.
And:

If the boundary between two properties is a non-navigable stream, the property runs to the “thread” or center of the main current. Each property owner would control essentially half. O.C.G.A. § 44-8-2; Outlaw v. Outlaw, 225 Ga. 100, 165 S.E.2d 845 (1969). This is presumed to be the intent of the deed unless otherwise is specifically stated.

…
If the boundary is a navigable river or stream, the boundary line only extends to the low-water mark of the riverbed. O.C.G.A. § 44-8-5. The term “navigable stream” means a stream which is capable of transporting boats loaded with freight in the regular course of trade either for the whole or a part of the year. Id. Mere rafting of timber or transporting wood in small boats does not make a river navigable

[cornflakes]

If you were asking in general, this would be a really complicated question. River law in the United States alone derives from at least three European codes and has been specialized for each state, with exceptions for all sorts of rivers and unique situations. Since you asked about the Platte (and not the North or South Platte), I assume that you’re asking about Nebraska law.

From the Nebraska Game and Parks Commission’s website:

Remember only the water belongs to the State of Nebraska. The riverbeds and all adjacent lands are the property of the landowner through which the water flows. Appreciate the privilege of using the waterway. Respect and be mindful of landowners and their property. Nebraska state statutes give users permission to portage around fences and other obstructions; however, you are responsible for any damage to the property. You must have landowner permission to picnic or camp…

…Camp only in designated areas. Respect private property. Obtain permission from private landowners before camping or entering the water from private land.

Usually, there isn’t any problem with camping on a sandbar in a US river, but every few years you hear of someone getting shot by an owner defending their actual or perceived rights. Personally, I’d call the owner of the property adjacent to the river and ask.

[cornflakes]

@kayaker

Is flash-flooding a concern?

I’ve camped on a riverbank where the water’s depth varied considerably overnight.

A friend who guided overnight trips on Western rivers swears by sticking a battery operated water alarm, like what you put in your basement or beside the water heater, between the river and your stuff.

Thinking about it, much of the Great Plains is composed of silty dirt. That sandbar may be a pretty nasty mudbar instead.

[madmonk28]

In the US, it varies by state. There was a recent court case in Virginia that ruled that landowners along a section of the Jackson River own the bottom and all the fish in their stretch based on a grant from George II. http://midcurrent.com/2012/10/17/virginia-fly-angler-loses-jackson-river-case/

[gnoitall]

@bob_2

I had a look at Google Earth - that river is more sandbar than water.

It’s the Platte. The Nebraska-standard historical joke about is “Too thick to drink, too thin to plow.”

[Satchmo]

Another common joke about the Platte in Nebraska, “500 miles long, a mile wide, a foot deep.”

[bob_2]

Sounds like you could substitute Platte for Ankh in the following quotes:

The Ankh is a river serpenting through the Sto Plains, reaching the Circle Sea by the town of Ankh-Morpork. By then, it can only be called a river because it moves faster than the banks.

You can’t drown in the Ankh, but it is really easy to suffocate.

Paradoxically, Morporkians are very proud of it. They say “A water that has been filtered by so many kidneys can only be very pure indeed” or “A water so full of life can’t be bad for health”.

Fishes are known to dwell in the Ankh, but they can’t be easily observed, because they tend to explode in clear water.

It has been said that the Ankh is the only river in the multiverse where cops can draw a chalk outline when a corpse is found.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

Captain Streeter.
I’m just sayin…

[Johanna]

In the law of nations, the standard definition for a river border is that it follows the Thalweg (valley way), which is the line connecting the deepest points along the channel. So even if the river dries up, you can still find the border. That just occurred to me.

Other places may distribute the river differently. Thanks to the charter given by King Charles to Lord Calvert, Maryland and DC have the whole Potomac, while the other side, Virginia, doesn’t get any and doesn’t start until the Virginia shoreline.