That would only disprove the claim if the claim said “every time” at the end. Again, the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”, and the plural of “poorly-thought-out fraction problem” is also not “data”.
His extra steps are bullshit, IMO. Using the number of discrete IPs is a ludicrously stupid method and no amount of post-hoc statistical wiggling can change that.
Really? Then why was The Eminem Show the highest-selling album of the year when it came out, despite also being the most pirated?
This is just silly. Nobody has a “right” to be paid at all for their work. Maybe their work isn’t worth paying for.
Nobody said they pirate because publishers are evil. First and foremost, people pirate because they want something. But there is not necessarily anything wrong with that; in fact, it can be a good thing, because availability of information is a good thing for its own sake.
For example, copyright laws are ridiculous, so there is nothing wrong with pirating material that is either old enough that it should be free, or that is unavailable through realistic legal means.
The “evil” of the publishers is not the reason for pirating; it is the lack of a reason not to. DRM gives justification for pirating, because no fully functional legal product is being offered.
As for 2dboy, you are making several classic statistical mistakes.
The sample cannot be considered a random sample from the population of all pirates. At best, you can consider it a random sample from the population of video game pirates (even this is a dangerous assumption because the game is so obscure). This is a very different group than, say, music pirates.
You are asking the wrong question. The percentage of people playing who are pirates gives you precisely zero information about whether pirating hurt sales.
Given the data, pirating may have increased sales. There is no way to tell.
I have a copy of ages of empires 3. Well I sort of do. I have disks 1, 2, and 3. Disk 1 was damaged so that it was partially unreadable. It still worked for the in the cd drive check but I couldn’t install off it. Well I had a drive failure, and low and behold when I went to reinstall the game it wouldn’t install.
No problem I thought! You see I made some back up isos. So I could reburn disk 1 on a blank disk and use it for reinstalling. Then use the real disk 1 for the cd check.
Nope, installer wouldn’t even run off the backup disk.
I checked a popular torrent website and all three disks are there and working. So that little bomb isn’t stopping piracy. It appears Microsoft expects me to rebuy the game because the disk was damaged. What’s the point of that?
I don’t see why the game’s relative obscurity is a factor. As for a skewed sample, the whole point is that if most pirates genuinely claim to be moral beings, one would expect those pirating World of Goo to be a small subset of pirates, and thus observe a reduced overall piracy rate. And yet this is not what we see.
For what feels like the hundredth time, I am not talking about whether piracy hurts sales. I am talking about whether pirates can ethically justify their actions. The fact that pirates are willing to steal from a tiny software house that bends over backwards to cater for its customers proves to me that most pirates just take stuff because they want it, and because it’s really easy.
It’s not about sales, it’s not even about DRM. It’s about people taking stuff without paying, and the reasons behind it. If you want examples of people justifying pirates’ actions by wittering on about evil publishers and downtrodden artists, then I suggest you re-read this thread a bit more closely. Posts 27, 33, 44 to an extent, 52, 85 in spades, 120 and so on are all to one degree or another invoking the apparent reprehensibility of the content industry to justify or in some way exculpate pirates.
You’re doing it yourself, in fact. DRM is not a justification for piracy. It is a reason not to purchase a product (a very good reason in some instances, I quite agree). That is the consumer’s remedy for a product he dislikes - he chooses not to buy it. He does not take it anyway, and call it freedom of information. This is what I’m objecting to - this bullshit recasting of casual immorality as some sort of noble quest against wrongdoers. Music is not so essential nor so scarce that we are forced to take it if it’s not offered in a form to our liking. So much free software exists that entire operating systems and application suites can be assembled without once touching any work with even a hint of proprietary code. So why pretend we’re somehow strong-armed into piracy? Why is DRM’d software different from any other product we just don’t want to buy?
Christ, is it really possible for you to be this thick? They have a right to be paid if people use their work. If it’s not worth paying for, then don’t take it. Jesus, if we really are going to have to take it back to this sort of basic level, we might as well all go home.
Er, because it was really popular with pirates and honest people alike? You seem convinced that I’m trying to say something about piracy affecting sales one way or the other. I am not. All I’m saying is that despite their manifold protestations to the contrary, pirates are cunts who don’t give a shit about the little guy. Or they’re Proudhonnists like you, I guess, but for some reason I don’t think the average Limewire user is all that in to anarchist philosophy. They just want free shit.
What about cases like mine where a legitimately purchased product was crippled by copyright protection? If I were to download the cracked version of disk 1 I bet it’d show up on the piracy figures, but is it really piracy?
No one is saying that the people who pirated World of Goo aren’t unethical fucks. What we are saying is that the piracy rate reported by 2dboy seems very high and that citing it has little if anything to do with whether or not piracy really matters with regards to sales, even in this case and even if the 90% figure is true.
Okay so what about me, I download TV Shows from the US as Im in Australia and will possibly not get them (Pushing Daisies and Chuck as examples).
If I download more than one episode (call it 5 max) I’ll get the rest of the season and purchase it when available from Amazon.com (thus breaching another form of copyright protection).
I am unable to purchase and download these shows legitimately from iTunes (US) nor Amazon.com (their new download option) which would be my preference, and all of them are available on the affiliated networks websites for viewing IF I lived in the US at no additional fee.
Yet I am purchasing the shows when they’re available, thus the network and distributors are not cost any money, am I a pirate or not?
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.
As expected, the vast majority of pirates did not pirate The World of Goo. Only a tiny subset of pirates pirated Goo.
This does not mean the percentage of players who pirated it will be low. It means the absolute quantity of players who pirated it will be small, which it is. Many less people pirated Goo than pirate well-known games with DRM.
I’m not sure what conclusions you can really draw from the percentage. But whatever they are, they are not applicable to pirates in general. Video game pirates are different than people who only download mp3s. Video game pirates who search for obscure games are probably some of the most hardcore pirates around.
This is where we probably have a difference in morals. I don’t think anyone has a “moral right” to completely control their own creative output. I disagree that such a “moral right” even exists. If you put something out there, I do not respect your choice to take it back and hide it for 100 years, or to attach malware to it to prevent people from using it. Once you put something out there, it is part of a larger world, and while you have significant control over it, you don’t have complete control.
Really? Why should an obscure game also not attract only a small subset of buyers?
And you’ve provided shit all for data to back up that broad-brush claim. That being said…
Well, yeah, of course we want free shit. 'Else we would buy the damn stuff. Look, I’m not saying everyone who pirates data is a philosopher. Far from it, judging from the fact that Madagascar 2, Bolt, Prison Break and “christmas” appear to be some of the most popular searches at one of the biggest torrent sites out there right now. I was asked to defend pirating content and I defended it.
Little late to the party here, but I personally “pirate” in three situations–
A) Games, especially niche ones, that have no demo, for the purpose of pre-purchase review, in which case I generally limit myself to an hour or two of play.
B) Games or software that are no longer available for legal acquisition. This excuse does not count if one refuses to make an effort. (I shit ye not, I once spent $15 cost+shipping for a copy of Lords of the Realm 2–two freakin’ years ago.)
C) I will install pirate copies of games at LAN parties or other multiplayer gaming sessions–and then generally buy the game the following week.
Basically, I only condone “piracy” of a full piece of software when there is no available avenue to acquire said software legally. I fully condone downloading “pirate” copies to avoid DRM or to compensate for lost/destroyed install media of a software title one already owns.
I think good proxies are hard to come by, unless you have an american friend with a fast connection who can set one up for you. Unless you pay you’re likely to find only terribly slow and unreliable ones.
Yeah unfortunately I had paid for Megaproxy after my brother saw it on one of the TechTV shows. Given the relative ease of using other means to get my shows before purchasing them, it’s easier just to continue using them.
I had considered purchasing US iTunes gift cards to make an American account with them to allow me to download shows legally and then found that they (Apple) consider this a breach of their Terms of Use and will suspend your account (including funds) if they find you doing so.
That’s a pretty disingenuous way of looking at piracy.
There’s about a million different open source licenses, not to mention bespoke licenses that individual developers use. Do you expect me to summarise each one? Here’s an obvious one: the open source project I’m a developer of requires all distributors to include the program’s source code, and any derivative works must be open source. Any failure to keep to the licensing agreement will be treated just like any other act of piracy.
This kind of thing is pretty common with anime. Many fansub groups will cease distributing a show if it gets licensed for the US, or at the very least (if the show is long and ongoing) remove torrents of early episodes. There’s also a good-sized body of older shows that either never were picked up state-side, or were and are no longer available. I’m not about to jump down someone’s throat for downloading something that isn’t available in their native region.
The reasons for pirating are endless. Some people use it as a ‘try before you buy’. Some use it for bodies of work that are nearly if not impossible to get legally in a usable form. Some people do it because they want something but can’t afford it, or don’t think it’s worth the price. Others just don’t give a fuck and will download anything they can get their hands on. Obviously, some of these reasons have more of a moral base to work from than others. Personally, I figure if the person wouldn’t have bought the item in question were pirating not an option, no harm is done. Hell, there are some people who only buy because pirating allowed them a cheap way of finding out if the product was worth buying–I certainly have a number of DVDs I probably wouldn’t have bought if not for less than legal viewing options.
I getting the same vibe too. I got a feeling (DISCLAIMER: just a feeling) that they see people playing hardcore mainstream games like DMC, RA3, LOTRO:MoM as lacking in inspiration and etc. Their horse seems to be higher than those of Bill Roper and such. But I admire them for their no-nonsense, straight to point talk, instead of the usual corporate double-speak. (The game sucks, they know it, but in their press release it is full of positive goodness that is like drowning people in gurgle)
The more I hear about the creator of Braid going on and on about his ‘unique’ design makes me less likely want to get it. I rather get an indie game whose creator shows some humility.
PS. Off tangent too. Not saying that 2D boy is in the above league, but indie game has ways to go to get accepted. Even causal games are doing better (btw, indie != casual. Not necessary, anyway).
Whatever. I was asked to defend my actions and I did. The fact is that I don’t pay for things that are worse than the equivalent free service.
Fair enough. I wasn’t thinking about the source-inclusion requirement.
Here’s an interesting question for you, though. I am, as we speak, using BitTorrent to download the most recent version of Debian stable. I’m downloading images for the binary discs (DVD). Since I’m using the official torrent link from debian.org, the source is obviously available right there. But I’m downloading the images from seeders who are only seeding the binary images. I, myself, am also seeding the binary images exclusively, not the source images. Are we pirating the content?
I’m not trying to catch you in a trap, I’m genuinely curious to hear the perspective on this from an open source developer.
This. As soon as I get a job, I’m buying the DVDs for They Live and The Wackness for the same reason.
I don’t know about nothing wrong, but I think the benefits can outweigh the harm.
Ferinstance, as others have stated theft of music is not a zero-sum issue like stealing a car. As you’ve pointed out, it has other effects on the artists, distributor, competing bands and consumers, etc. It has pluses also though. I’ve bought albums by bands I would have never heard if not for pirating. That needs to be weighed. I’ve been to concerts of bands that I would never have heard of if not for priating. That needs to be weighed. There are a couple bands that have suffered because I might have purchased their albums if not for piracy, but overall I’ve given the industry more because of piracy. Every study seems to show that piracy does not cause the music industry any harm in the aggregate either.
I wonder if you have deluded yourself into thinking that there is nothing right with doing this?
Look, I’m not saying everyone who pirates data is a philosopher. Far from it, judging from the fact that Madagascar 2, Bolt, Prison Break and “christmas” appear to be some of the most popular searches at one of the biggest torrent sites out there right now. I was asked to defend pirating content and I defended it.