Personally, I wouldn’t have thought there was much debate. However, appearently there is, so I thought I’d make a new thread and see what turns up.
Here was a statement from another thread that decided me to start this one:
From Roland Saul
It was a hijack…but here’s your chance Roland. I think he’s layed out the conspiricy theory side well enough…just vague enough, full of shadows and inuendo, and just plausable (if you look at it sideways while heavily intoxicated) enough to make you wonder.
So, who was REALLY behind 9/11? Myself, I think its ObL and his merry band. I think he basically did something very human…he fucked up and miscalculated the response of America to what he’d done. He fucked up in thinking that Afghanastan would be a tougher nut for the US to crack than it was…remember, ObL was an Afghani freedom fighter, and he was there when they took down the USSR. It was only natural for him to think that the US, even if they DID commit to a fight (something I a betting he didn’t think would happen…maybe some air strikes or lob a few cruise missiles, but put troops on the ground? America? Not likely…or so he thought) would have a hard time subdueing the Afghani’s.
I doubt anyone, certainly not anyone who is not intimately familiar with the US, could or would have predicted our response. I know that in many cases, the perception of Americans was that we are fat, lazy, divided (they are right on this one), and most importantly, weak willed for things that cost them blood and money. I think that this perception has altered a bit now, but if you think back a bit to how America was percieved before 9/11, I think its vastly different than how its percieved now.
Anyway, thats the debate. Who was behind 9/11? What were their reasons?
I’m not blaming anyone for 9/11 until I have reasonable suspicion.
So far, I haven’t been shown any concrete proof that he was involved, and the commission created to dig deeper into the level of pre-information within the American intelligence and political circles is getting stonewalled.
I don’t think that anyone in a position of Middle East power was ignorant of the fact that to commit a heinous act on American soil would be to invite catastrophe. OBL had nothing to gain and everything to lose from 9/11.
Now if someone were to show me reasonable proof that OBL was the mastermind, sure I would be convinced, but that hasn’t happened so far. I must admit that any “proof” emanating from the american intelligence community would be highly suspect also. It’s been shown quite clearly that there is huge pressure from the White House to create, distort, and selectively examine intelligence evidence in order to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion.
The official version of the events of 9/11 is brought to you by the same powers that brought you the Warren commision and the investigation into TWA flight 800…who in their right mind would believe these guys??
I would ask to see real basic proof of OBL’s main guilt. I want to believe that he was responsible, because the alternatives are much more disturbing, but I just can’t reconcile the “evidence” presented so far.
It was laughing Jewish agents near a white van, when they were not working in mall kiosks. Yeah, I keep up on my conspiracy theories. :dubious:
What about the part of the tape where UBL talks about his engineering knowledge and the structural weaknesses in the WTC?
Oh, and did Mossad hit the WTC the first time also? If so, some poor Isamist nutbars need a habeas corpus petiton.
Saddam, his people, UBL, and his people have one huge advantge over people like me: they don’t care who they have to kill or make suffer to get what they want. Supposedly Saddam has “nothing to gain” by bombing the Red Cresent – yesterday. Today, NGOs are getting nervous and discussing leaving Iraq. That’s a lot to gain if your whole raison d’etre is the acqusition of power and brutality. Saddams and Usamas thrive in failed states.
Well much of the evidence against the Al Qaeda was the style… coordinated attacks and the Saudi Nationality. Many had gone thru Afghani training camps. Maybe they were rogue or independent members of Al Qaeda… but it stank of Al Qaeda… thou I have to agree with the OP that there was no definite or final proof…
I was hunting about on Al-Jazeera’s english web site and found a link to CNN dealing with who was responsible for 9/11. I’m sure it won’t be convincing to you, Roland Saul, as I’m sure you’ve seen it and disreguarded it already (as well as the translation where ObL basically says he did it). Anyway, here’s the link.
Maybe you’d like to speculate on who you think did it, Roland Saul, as you are unconvinced it was AQ and ObL behind it. Who do YOU think it was? Don’t hide it…if you think it was the US and the Administration, come right out and say so. If you think it was someone else, same.
Surely an unbiased cite if ever I’ve seen one, akrako1. What was my first clue? Why the War Profitteer Playing Cards advertised with a picture of ole GW in a jesters hat…as the Joker of course. Truely a wealth of information there. Here is one part though that might have slipped by, as its kind of tucked away in the back part of one of the rants:
From Center for Cooperative Research
Of course, lets disreguard that appearently no other administration has ever let such information be shared with Congress or other outside agencies (my guess is if it really was ‘rarely’, they would have provided a cite about it to make Bush look worse).
Is the Bush administration holding back info? Appearently. Is it something thats been done by other administrations (democrat AND republican)? Obviously. The question I’d have to ask is…why are they holding it back? Eventually the information will be public domain after all (Freedom of Information Act). So, if its because of some big conspiricy where the administration was involved, then we’ll find out eventually and GW is young enough that he will still be around to face the music. Ah you say…but they will simply destroy or alter the records and he’ll get off scott free. Ok, then why not simply do that now, give this commission what its asking for (i.e. altered records) and wack anyone not to be fully trusted?
I’d say, if Bush and co ARE holding things back, its more in the nature of stuff that will be embarrassing to the administration…i.e. threat reports given to the President as briefings prior to 9/11 that warned something might be afoot, stuff like that. IF he/they are holding back for more reason that the stiff necked “No OTHER administration gave this kind of stuff out, why should we!”, then its almost certainly politically motivated…not some sinister conspiricy theory crap with the US having destroyed those towers.
My question to the ObL is innocent folks is this: IF ObL is innocent, why wasn’t he out there screaming his head off telling the world (or Al Jazzeera at least who DID interview him post 9/11) that it wasn’t him or his organization. Maybe we wouldn’t have believed him (probably not), but he didn’t even make the effort to deny that he had done it. Why?
Prior to WWII, the US Navy had a number of war plans Orange, which outlined the predicted course of a conflict with Imperial Japan. The plans tended to be wishy washy on the causes of the war (probably economic, probably involving China) and assumed the war would start with a suprise attack in Guam or the Phillipines because there was NO WAY that Japan would attack at Pearl Harbor. Not because such an attack was beyond their capabilities or had no chance of success, but rather because the Japanese HAD to know that an attack on Pearl Harbor would be considered an attack on the heart of the US, which could only initiate the kind of knock-down drag out total war that Japan could not possibly hope to win rather than the sort of limited war for limited gain which was Japan’s MO to date (and indeed the goal of their strike on Pearl.) I think it is very difficult to assess the level of knowledge and judgement available to other individual in other cultures.
The data points a terrorist might extrapolate from might include Beiruit, Mogadishu, the USS Cole, and even Vietnam - the US reassessing which interests were indeed core as a result of (from one standpoint) relatively low casualties. I think there is no need to point out the ease with which an ideologically driven leadership can selectively analyze cherry picked data in order to reach the appropriate conclusions.
An alternative “why” theory might include a reverse flypaper strategy, which might make sense to a group whose opinion of pretty much all Muslim governments today ranges from hatred to loathing.
Well, xtisme, there isn’t much debating to do over that particular piece, for sure. It says nothing of OBL’s guilt or innocence. Exactly which part do you interpret as him saying “that he basically did it.”? In my view, he restates that America deserves death of her children much as the arab world has had her children killed, largely at the behest and support of the US. (Among others, yes.)
Nothing new in that statement, but it wouldn’t amount to a confession at all in any court in any country that I’m aware of.
I do not believe in his innocence or guilt, but I have to this day
been shown no real proof of guilt, and like it or not, I would in all conscience have to apply the “innocent until proven guilty” principle in this case as I would apply it to any criminal act.
I cannot follow your particular interpretation on this article. It infers very little about OBL and offers no evidence whatsoever. I’m just asking for reasonable proof, and none is forthcoming. You may attempt to portray me as a conspiracy theorist or a nutjob , I don’t care in the least, but you offer no substantiating evidence. I was actually hoping for something a little more credible than CNN. The burden of proof is on the accuser, and if you feel that OBL is guilty, please provide some description of how that article contitutes any sort of confession.
I remain convinced only that there were people with much more to gain from 9/11 than OBL. No proof has been shown that others have committed this crime, but IMHO that doesn’t make OBL any more guilty.
It is disturbing how fast the public gobbled the whole thing up. Al-qaeda is probably behind the whole thing, I’m not doubting it - but all the government had to do was come out a few days later and say “It was al-qaeda! Let’s go blow up afghanistan!” and everyone was convinced.
No one wanted proof, or to double check the facts. The media never questioned any aspect of it. It was just instantly gobbled up because it was said by Our Heros, The Government.
So I’m not doubting al-qaeda was behind this - but had the government’s official stance been “Syria did it. Let’s go blow up Syria”, I can’t see anyone questioning that either, and off we’d go to war with Syria. So, with a complacent society who doesn’t question it’s government, they could’ve pretty much said anything after 9/11 and we’d have swallowed it completely.
On that basis, I have no idea of Al-qaeda was responsible or not. The government could’ve said anything and that would’ve become the Official Truth. There’s a decent chance they’re telling the actual truth - but if they wanted to push an agenda, the American public would’ve accepted anything The Government said.
I REALLY hate this board sometimes. This is my second attempt to get back to Roland Saul on this. The board ate my first attempt by explaining to me that I wasn’t logged in…again. sigh
Oh well, here is (hopefully) the abreviated version with only a single link. I don’t have to heart to re-do the whole frigging post again.
The problem, Roland Saul, is that nothing I can show you will convince you. Its like trying to convince any conspiricy theory person…it can’t be done. Any ‘evidence’ that contridicts the conspiricy is just part of the conspiricy coverup and is disreguarded. Its a catch 22.
No, I’m not saying you are a ‘nut job’, or anything of the sort…I don’t ‘know’ you well enough, and I think you are sincere in your doubts. For myself, I can’t see a plausable alternative…I’ve never been shown any to be honest. Using Occams Razor, I’d say its pretty cut and dried…the guy basically ‘confessed’, he has a know history of such attacks (such as the first world trade center, the Cole, other bombings, etc). To me its pretty cut and dried, though I admit that the language he used in his ‘confession’ was not black and white…however, thats the way this guy talks. More on that later.
But what ‘proof’ would you accept? You obviously think that the ObL speech was either a fake, or the language was so convoluted that you remain unconvinced. The man IS a nut job, and he also thinks he’s a poet and a scholar to boot.
Anyway, here is a link to another Al Jazzeera quoted cite (this on in the UK) that shows his speech televised by Al Jazzeera, though I doubt they will convince you at all. A quick google search turns up all kinds of folks that claim (due to everything from nose size to lip puffyness) that they are obviously fakes, in spite of the fact that it was Al Jazzeera that published it. I guess America runs them too…
Allowing for the flowery and contridictory nature of the mans speech, I’d say this is pretty convincing…IF you think its him, and if you can follow what he’s REALLY saying. Also, keep in mind its a translation to boot. But there isn’t much that will convince someone who doesn’t want to be convince. How about this…why don’t you provide some cites detailing why you DON’T think it was ObL…and maybe some speculation on who it was, if not him.
Heh, interesting to see how radically the American concept of itself differs from foreign conceptions. Your response was entirely predictable. Personally, evil beast that he is I dont think Osama miscalculated. He has got the desired reaction. He has further radicalised the muslim world, and US foreign policy and prestige lies in tatters in the sands of Iraq. New recruits have flocked to his cause, and you have toppled his enemy Saddam for him. George Bush is the best American president Al Qaeda has ever had.