Well, I did say that it was a toss-up.
Yeah, I gotta wonder what he was smoking when he posted that? In particular, Hillary has yet to get into a position to cause much damage. Maybe if some day she becomes president (unlikely) history will bear him out. However, Jeff Davis beats any whiney shrew.
Reagan’s War on the Poor clearly caused suffering, and even deaths. However, I’ll concede that if the time frame is 1776 until today, Jeff Davis FAR beats Reagan.
Er, a bit of this thread is evidence in my mind that many of us have a difficult achieving historical detachment.
There are a few people who haven’t been mentioned yet, so for the record, perhaps they should be:
No one’s mentioned Herbert Hoover yet. Curious. For the flip side of that coin, no one’s mentioned Franklin Roosevelt yet. Both were widely detested in their day - by different factions, yes.
No one wants to put in a bad word for Warren Harding?
A few of the robber barons got mentioned, and John F. Kennedy got mentioned, but not Joe Kennedy?
Aaron Burr got mentioned, but not James Walker?
Boss Tweed?
My only point is, we shouldn’t neglect these worthies. There are doubtless others.
Jefferson Davis deserves his condemnations, but it’s not as if he caused the Civil War or inspired the secessions.
How about Robert E. Lee? He didn’t kill anyone as far as I know, but he did lead the Confederate Army. Much more direct responsibility for the killing with Lee.
Robert E. Lee was a good man in a bad position who searched his conscience and followed it. He did the best he could, and he did what he did very well. I can’t fault the man for that.
How about General Lemnitzer?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
He planned to create fake terrorist attacks on US citizens to start a war with Cuba. (The link is a quote of a section of a book, Body of Secrets) I consider that pretty darn unamerican.
There have been some worthwhile nominees to date:
Andrew Jackson certainly deserves some consideration. His treatment of Native Americans could fairly be called genocidal, and his dismantling of the national bank was both illegal and foolish.
Ronald Reagan- father of the national debt, trickle down economics, illegal arms sales, and sucking up to the vipers of the Moral Majority.
Jefferson Davis did deserve some consideration for his refusal to end the war when it became obvious that it was a lost cause. However, the war would have started had he not even been born, the roots of the war are much bigger than any one person.
These three are hard to beat, but my nomination goes to none other than Richard Cheney.
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War Profiteering His company, Haliburton, made obscene profits in no-bid contracts with the government. That no-bid contracts are grossly overpriced is one thing, that they just happen to benefit the veep’s cronies is unconscienable.
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Government Secrecy Like the cockroach that he is, Cheney dislikes the light of day. He successfully fought to keep the membership of his energy task force secret. He has tried to stonewall all attempts to shed light on intelligence reports that Bush had or did not have prior to 9/11.
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The War in Iraq His was the hawkish voice that had Bush’s ear. He had the most to gain from starting the war, so the blame for the war is partially on his shoulders.
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Acceptance of Torture He does not acknowledge, much less express remorse over,the acts of torture committed by Americans against detainees in Guantanamo.
Cheney is truly Machiavelli and Boss Hogg rolled into one. His agenda is simple: amass power, consolidate power, conceal power, and abuse power for personal gain. He has contempt for the separation of powers and the democratic process. A man with no redeeming features whatever.
That could be said of a lot of people. In Lee’s case, following his conscience involved leading and organizing attacks against the United States for four years, and doing his job well meant killing tens of thousands of men in defense of slavery. I think that’s enough to merit consideration as the Worst American. (At a bare minimum if you ask me it says he wasn’t such a good man.) The war would have happened without both Lee and Davis, but Lee was the one leading the fight against the USA.
I can view the term “Worst American” in two different ways. First are the people whose wrong actions had the most far-reaching consequences, the big names like Jefferson Davis, McCarthy, Reagan, Jackson, etc.
But there are other people who simply personify heartless and mindless evil. Though they haven’t been directly responsible for changing the course of history, their actions or words are a negative reflection on the United States, and indicate a level of depravity that can’t go unmentioned.
There are bottom feeders like Jerry Springer, who get rich by sensationalizing people’s stupidity.
There’s the minister who condemned the people who jumped from the World Trade Center on 9/11.
There’s the Pat Robertson/Jerry Fallwell crowd, not to mention Fred Phelps.
And there are people like Lynndie England, who are obviously bit players, but who put an ugly face on the U.S. and its military.
Well, it’s not the absolute worst, just a whole bunch of the worst. And I name Reagan for his support of murderers, rapists, sadits and terrorists in Central America.
Let’s see, how about Blanck and Harris, the owners of the Triangle Waist Company, who insisted on locking doors, despite the many fires they had experienced in their buildings. All to avoid employee theft, but even after the disastrous fire in 1911, Blanck was STILL locking doors at his factories because he thought all of his employees were thieves.
Tammany Hall politicians should also get a mention.
Bob Novak, aka “douchebag for liberty”. Outing a CIA agent just because you disagree with her husband’s politics, putting her life in danger (not even, he just told the admin something they didn’t want to hear), and then refusing to name his source. All over some petty political disagreement. Disgusting.
Ann Coulter. 'Nuff said.
Evidently he was a good enough man to be offered the command of the Union Army. Would your estimation of him change if he had accepted?
Being offered command of an army doesn’t make you a good man. I’m not arguing he was a bad general. I know he wasn’t, and your comment is good evidence of it. I said he may not have been a good man, and I stand by that.
If he’d lead the Union Army it wouldn’t automatically make him a good person in my opinion. I don’t think McClellan and Grant were wonderful people. But sure, it would change my estimation of him somewhat. If he’d fought for the US, he wouldn’t have lead an army against his country in defense of what I consider an indefensible cause.
If getting huge numbers of people killed counts then couldn’t Abraham Lincoln fall in that category? How’s about General McClellan? Actually I think I’d favor judging the pompous ass with delusions of glory over the President.
:rolleyes:
Great use of selective quoting. I said I’d consider Lee because he killed a lot of people and attacked the United States - hence my mentioning his name in this ‘Worst American’ topic - “in defense of slavery” and “in defense of what I consider an indefensible cause.” I think was quite clear about that.
Herbert Hoover would be a reasonable choice for the GREATEST American. Sure, he was President when the Depression hit, but his other accomplishments were the likes of which few Americans could possibly match. For one, he saved hundreds of thousands of lives, many MILLIONS, from starvation through his brilliant work managing post-WWI famine relief in Europe.
Hoover may well be the most underrated 20th century figure in any country.
Can I mention King George? 
But nobody ever died as a direct consequence of anything Rand did. Well, maybe a few people took up smoking who otherwise might not have, but other than that she has no blood on her hands. If you’re going to nominate someone for Most Evil American simply because they created and propagated an astonishing stupid and psychologically harmful philosophy, why not nominate L. Ron Hubbard? He was infinitely worse than Rand.
'Cuz slavery is only wrong when it’s practiced by white people. Didn’t you know that?
Or the fact that Lee himself never owned a slave (Grant on the other hand owned several).
One of my favorite tales of the Civil War occurred on one of the first Sundays after Lee’s surrender in St. Paul’s Episcopal Church, Richmond. The all white congregation was stunned when the call for communion was answered by a well dressed black man who emerged from the back of the church and knelt at the rail, his hands upturned for the wine and wafer. The priest was frozen and silent- he didn’t know what to do- and there was audible protest among the congregation, most of whom had just lost their slaves and relatives and weren’t about to accept the black man as their equal.
Lee was in the church that day. He rose to his feet, walked to the rail, and knelt beside the black man, receiving communion with him. After that a few of the others came up as well, and the black man left. (He had never been seen in the church before and was never seen there again, leading of course to the “He was an angel” camp, but more likely he was a well dressed black man.)
Or David Koresh.