Canada = A Maple Syrup Republic
It wasn’t the only news story.
My point is that reality is a bit more complex.
I should add that the former Spanish American colonies of Florida, Texas and California have done quite well under US 'meddling".
If you were an American Indian, and survived the initial onslaught of European disease, you were marginally better off living in the Spanish American colonies than in the English.
The more northerly parts of North America were less densely populated than the southern, and the Indians were more decimated by disease (because of earlier exploration) even before English settlement, so that it was easy for the English to simply muscle the Indians further and further west and exterminate any who got in their way.
The Spanish colonies were more densely populated, even after reduction by disease, so that the Indians couldn’t be shoved aside or ignored. Intermarriage was more common, and the Catholic Church acted as a restraining influence on extermination of Indians who had converted.
That’s not to say that life as an Indian in Latin America was a joy ride–the Crown expropriated their land just the same, and awarded it to (often absentee) noble land owners or the Church. Many lived lives of rural peonage. But more Indians, and more of their culture survived.
If you were an enslaved African, life in either the Spanish or English colonies totally sucked, in equal measure.
But if you were a white settler, especially of the lower classes, life in the English colonies was vastly better. The English traditions of capitalism, free speech, a free press, freedom of religion, and equality before the law made for wealthier and more robust societies than the Spanish tradition of domination by the nobility, the army, and the church. This is why the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are wealthier societies today than any of the countries from Mexico to Argentina. In that sense, and only in that sense, the English were “better colonizers”.
We weren’t paranoid about them turning to communism? Canada wasn’t as easy yo economically exploit with US companies? Just some thoughts.
I can see how Florida becoming a state compares with a US-sponsored coup of a Latin American government, sure.
Wait. No, I can’t.
Except that you are cherry-picking the British Colonies. What about Rhodesia (Zimbabwe), Nigeria, and other spots in Africa. I’d rather live in any of those “Banana Republics” than Zimbabwe. Hell, South Africa which is arguably the British Colony in Africa that is in the best shape, still has quite a few problems.
I don’t want to get too involved in this debate, as I’m exceptionally biased even after years on this board. However:
How do you explain Cuba then? By the time of the Spanish American war we weren’t exactly in the first wave of colonization, after all.
I would have to say that the worst colonizers, from the natives perspective and limiting the choice to Brit or Spanish would have to be…it depends. If you were a Tasmanian then my guess would be you’d select the Brits (well, you WOULD, if you were still alive), but if you were a heathen Indian peasant in most of the old Spanish colonies, assuming again that you were alive to give an opinion, you’d probably choose Spain as the worst.
Bad as the Trail of Tears was in the US, the things the Spanish and British did were sickening due to the sheer scale.
-XT
What about Cuba? What are the charges against Spain?
No he isn’t cherry picking at all.
If you re-read his original post he emphasised most of the British Colonies.
Anyway, it’s hardly our fault if Zimbabwe (Rhodesia as was) and Nigeria choose to fuck up in their choice of leaders/despots/barking mad rulers
You’ve answered my question right there…you really don’t know much about the Spanish colonial period if you don’t know anything about Spanish oppression of Cuba. As for your question, the list is long and varied…I suggest you google it and read up on the subject before interjecting your thoughts into a thread like this…and that you get your info from sources other than myself, since I am still fairly biased about Spain and the Spanish colonial period in Latin America. Perhaps another 'doper will oblige you…or, you could google it up as I said.
-XT
In the bigger colonies, like Argentina, Perú, México… Then yea, what you wrote is (more or less) right. They had awesome cities built, centers of higher learning done, infrastructure, etc. The colonial Spain that you described is that…
In the smaller colonies, like Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Dominican Republic, this was not the case. They were poor plantation colonies. They depended on the money from other parts of the empire to survive. The crown didn’t give a s! about them in many aspects, other than to control them. The crown didn’t care in setting them up in commercial enterprises, branching out, etc. That said, they all developed awesome cultures. 
When they became independent, Domincan Republic was even more unprepared than the other Latin American countries. Spain grudgingly began giving more powers to the remaining colonies (Cuba and Puerto Rico), but by then it was too little, too late, and the Spanish-American War was about to begin.
Eugenio María de Hostos, a nineteenth century essayist, wrote an article one time that talks about what Freddy the Pig’s mentioned in his last paragraph. Not exactly the same, but the general idea that it was the model of colonization that affected the outcome.
Just to echo… I don’t know exactly how repressive the Spanish crown was in the bigger colonies (as compared to the local creole elite), but in Puerto Rico (and I’m assuming Cuba)… They were very harsh. And it went in cycles from “Ok, we’ll grant them some rights”, “Wait, scratch that, let’s go back to something more repressive”, “hmm, maybe if we give them a little something”, “Nevermind, we’ll take it back with a vengeance”, “OKOKOK, we promise we’ll be good”… you see?
I think something like this happened between us two before. I ask a question and you dismiss me as an ignorant. I don’t like it, please don´t it again.
I know about the concentration camps in Cuba and I do qualify them as atrocities but it happened in the late 19 century and in a different context. Revolutions erupted all over Latin America in the early 19 century and while independence in all cases was dearly bought, nothing like the above mentioned camps occurred.
The question is why? A possible answer is that diseases like nationalism, superiority of races or the looming threat of the U.S. were absent. Remember, for the last item mentioned, that before the Cuban insurrection there were talks by prominent americans to “steal” Cuba, Puerto Rico and the philipines from Spain, something that ultimately happened.
I do not want to get too deeply in here because this could take forever. It is an interesting topic to share with people who know something about it but not really adequate for an internet thread. (Well, like most topics we treat here)
Some disjoined thoughts.
Spain initially, in the 16th century, was, without doubt, the most advanced and enlightened nation in Europe. It was far ahead in concepts of Human Rights, rule of law, etc. No question about it. Both the crowns of Castile and Aragon had established and respected legal systems where even the King had his limits and his place. Like America today, one can say the ideals were there even if they were not always respected as they should.
As Spain’s power declined, so did Spain’s ability to exert influence and was forced to go along with things which should never have been acceptable. By the second half of the 19th century the major sugar plantations in Cuba were owned by Americans who wanted to keep slavery and Spain went along with that because it was the only way to keep Cuba. Spain knew that the minute the Americans wanted to take Cuba for themselves they could do it. Today we can judge that as shameful but Spain was just doing what was reasonably possible and even then ended up losing its last colonies to America.
To show America as they good guys in the Spanish- American war is just laughable. America, as Mark Twain denounced at the time, was just resorting to ridiculous pretenses in order to expand their empire as they thought was their manifest destiny. And they committed atrocities which would never have been done by the Spanish. Then like now the excuse was that the ends justify the means. Then, like now, there was no real intention of liberating anyone but submitting them to American rule. In Philippines the war against the Americans was long and bloody. Witness episodes like the Moro Crater Massacre.
American Fallujah style “liberation”.
In Cuba half a century of American exploitation resulted in Fidel Castro.
Mark Twain said:
Compare America’s actions with Spain. From Cuba or The Pursuit of Freedom by Hugh Thomas, a great book about the history of Cuba.
To paint America as much better than Spain is just ridiculous. Look at the American civil war and what was done and tell me Spain was worse. Of course not. One reason Spain lost, besides the obvious military inferiority, is that Spain still had certain moral qualms which America did not. For America vistory is all that counted (and counts) and everything else comes second. Spain was not like that at that time.
A few decades later Spain degraded to the point which made the civil war possible and inevitable and where victory was the only goal on both sides. Probably the most shameful event in modern Spanish history. But, on the whole, Spain can be quite proud of the colonization of America even if there are episodes which should not have happened.
Ever heard of this thing called the Spanish Inquisition ?
Yes. It is the tired cliché of those who know little about history. We have had several threads about that. I recommend you read them. Because just mentioning the name like it is the ultimate argument is pretty much like mentioning Hitler: a way to just ruin a good thread.
I am not interested in silly, simplistic, exchanges. But I suppose I could mention Hitler or witch burning just to be covered.
Actually Mark Twain seems to have initially supported the Spanish-American War, accepting the idea that the United States ought to liberate Cuba from Spanish tyranny; it was the U.S. policy of annexations after the war, and most especially the nasty counter-insurgency the U.S. waged in its new colony in the Philippines that he bitterly denounced.
Of the Spanish-American War, Twain said:
Granted, with Twain you always have to be on the lookout for deadpan irony, but he seems to have been quite sincere in viewing the U.S. as having acted morally, up until we went from being the “liberator of the oppressed” to setting up an American Empire:
Sorry if it doesn’t fit with your glorious view of Spanish history. :rolleyes:
Back to the main topic. So which former colony of Spain, other than a colony taken over by another European country or America has evolved into a first world nation?
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but you seem to be saying that Spanish atrocities in Cuba were caused by the US. If so…cite?
Do you know what the term ‘strawman’ means? Or, to put this another way, who said this? It certainly wasn’t me.
Even if true, so what? Unless you are making the case that between the British and the Spanish it was actually American colonialism (you know, the thing we are talking about) which was worse. If so, present your case for how American colonialism is worse.
Otherwise, unless you have evidence that Spanish atrocities in Cuba (or elsewhere) were actually caused by the US then you are simple spouting your standard anti-American bullshit and derailing the thread. So…let’s see your evidence, ehe?
And you figure that the cite you used above proves this, ehe? Pretty weak.
BTW, no one is, afaik, saying that the US was all goodness and light.
Um…what the hell are you talking about? American Civil War…Spanish colonialism. Thread about colonialism. Does…not…compute…
Seemingly you are babbling about the Spanish American war here…again, the thread is about colonialism. Check the OP. When come back, bring point, ehe?
-XT
The measure of success is how rich and powerful are the former colonies?
I’ll take Costa Rica over many first world countries any day.