Having read the thread, maybe the title should have been “Who were the greatest North American racehorses…” No-one has mentioned Nijinsky, Dancing Brave, Mill Reef, Seabird?
I would like to first say Secretariat was by no means a failure at stud. He was a successful stallion with a respectable $35,000 stud fee at the time of his death (IIRC). He was considered a “failure” because he never quite replicated himself the way people hoped. However, his daughter Lady’s Secret was the 1985 Horse of the Year–one of very, very few fillies/mares ever to be named so in history (I want to say she was the 3rd). His son Risen Star was a very fast-closing 3rd in the Kentucky Derby, then won the Preakness and Belmont. His Belmont was won by 14 3/4 lengths–and was, at the time, the 2nd fastest Belmont ever won…second only to his own father.
Secretariat has achieved incredible success as a broodmare sire. In other words, his daughters produce astoundingly gifted foals, that often become excellent breeders themselves. Most significant case in point is Storm Cat, the leading (and most expensive at $500,000 a pop) American breeding stallion. He is by Storm Bird (a Northern Dancer stallion) out of Terlingua–a mare by Secretariat.
Avenger, you are most certainly correct–no one has mentioned the European (or Australian, or Japanese, or…well, you get the idea) monsters that have scorched the turf. I’m afraid that as big of a horse racing fanatic as I am, I’m not as up on my international trivia. I’d say Nijinsky II has to rank seriously high up there, though (IIRC, he was the first European Triple Crown winner in 30+ years). Feel free to share what you know about these speedsters!
And of course, I’ll be back with my input on the greatest (North American) horses. A few tidbits–Secretariat was a monster, a true freak, when it comes to his raw talent…but, he wasn’t always as consistent as he could be. He lost, and he lost more than once or twice. Man O War, meanwhile, blew the door hinges off anything that dare came near him–except once by a horse appropriately named Upset. And in that case, even Upset’s jockey claimed the original Big Red should’ve won that race–his skilled race riding kept MOW from winning, not a lack of MOW’s talent.
Back again soon! 
He lost 4 times. Although one of those came on a DQ at the Champagne Stakes.
But weren’t Secretariat’s losses marked by illnesses–a virus, and I seem to recall an abcessed ulcer under his lip in at least two.
Perhaps it could be argued that had he run through these problems to win, he would be the greatest, but not in the absence of having done so. I guess it’s like identifying the greatest hitter of all time–first you have to define what makes one the greatest. Is it consistent domination of peers, or is it a marginally less consistent but more “super-human” (I know, I know, he was a horse) domination? This is a matter of opinion, to a large extent.
I believe Secretariat running head to head with Man o’War would have won (yeah, right, I can prove that :dubious: ). That, to me, makes him the greater horse (I realize that there are other perfectly valid ways of determing the greater horse). I don’t think a horse before him or since could have beaten Secretariat, not if both horses were on their best day. Secretariat was the horse equivalent of Superman, or so he seemed to this then-kid when he saw him win the triple crown.
I will also allow that I am no expert and that I may be idealizing a former sports hero. But I do know the Derby record still stands to this day.
I had the great thrill of being present to see Secretariat run, and win, his last race at Woodbine (October 22, 1973). I still have the program and an uncashed winning ticket!
He was maginficent as always.
Let me be provocative and hijack slightly the OP to ask, “Which horse was the greatest sire?”. I would submit that Northern Dancer, the great Canadian champion, would win that honour.
Perhaps I should clarify. It is not my belief that Man O War would beat Secretariat in a race held in current times. These two horses stand out because they were complete revolutions of the racing world. They were both such enormous evolutionary leaps ahead of their competition that, when on the game, weren’t in sight of the other racers–nonetheless touchable.
Man O War is my top pick because he was light years beyond what the rest of the breeding world was producing. MOW was winning races 90 years ago that would still be competitive today in the top caliber stakes–an astounding consideration.
Secretariat is similar–he blew the barn doors off his competition. He would nearly certainly beat MOW on a level playing field, partially because he has the advantage of 53 additional years of breeding for speed–and partially because he was a track-eating monster. To address the OP, Secretariat is the faster horse…I’m just arguing about who I consider the greatest.
That said, Secretariat’s Belmont is one of the single greatest spectacles ever in racing, and what I would consider THE greatest. His fractions alone would win races at those distances, and in some cases, set track records. His winning time is the equivalent of more than 10 lengths ahead of the 2nd fastest, despite 30 years of additional competition, and remains very safe as the world record for the distance on the dirt.
Regarding his stats–Secretariat lost 5 times, not 4. His lifetime race record was 21 starts, 16 wins (14 stakes), 3 seconds (3 in stakes), and 1 third (1 in stakes). It was the Whitney stakes, BTW, that he lost due to illness (it was his first race after the Belmont). He also lost the Woodward Stakes to his stablemate (and '72 Derby winner) Riva Ridge while racing over a sloppy track he found not to his liking. His other losses came in the Wood Memorial (a Derby prep, where he was third) and in his very first race as a 2yro. He was 4th then after being hit, hard, by horses on either side of him and being squished to the back of the pack. It is the only time he finished off the board.
Man O War’s record was 21 starts and 20 wins (19 in stakes) and one second (also a stake race event). He would beat horses carrying imposts 30 pounds lighter than those assigned to him–something absolutely unheard of nowadays, trainers grumble about giving 10lbs or even 4–and he won on all variety of tracks and by absolutely incredible distances. As mind-blowing as Secretariat’s 31 length win was, what on Earth was it like to see MOW win the 1920 Lawrence Realization by 100 lengths?? I’m surprised he didn’t end up lapping the competition.
All this said…there are track hardboots who would have me skewered for not praising the phenomenon of Citation or Seattle Slew or Native Dancer or Swaps, or whoever has impressed them the most. It is fun to think about, and talk about.
BTW…the Thoroughbred Record’s top 25 North American horses of the 20th century are, ranked in order:
- Man o’ War
- Secretariat
- Citation
- Kelso
- Count Fleet
- Dr. Fager
- Native Dancer
- Forego
- Seattle Slew
- Spectacular Bid
- Tom Fool
- Affirmed
- War Admiral
- Buckpasser
- Colin
- Damascus
- Round Table
- Cigar
- Bold Ruler
- Swaps
- Equipoise
- Phar Lap
- John Henry
- Nashua
- Seabiscuit
Interesting note–Seabiscuit was ranked 11 behind the horse he defeated in the infamous match race.
**It was at the Wood where they discovered, prior to the race, an abscess under Secretariat’s lip. From ESPN.com:
** So in five losses, there is one that Secretariat won but lost through disqualification (for bumping another horse), and two due to illness. Discounting those, he had one more loss than Man o’ War.
**Understood. And your rationale (and facts) are very interesting (add more, please!).
I would just argue that 30 additional years of breeding for speed have not erased the Derby record, have not overtaken his world record (at the Belmont) for 1-1/2 miles on a dirt track, have produced no Belmont winner since who has come closer than a full two seconds to Secretariat’s time. Like I said, I hear ya, but for this less-than-expert fan, the contest ends when we satisfy ourselves who would have won head to head. The greater horse wins the race (at least most of the time 
)…
And I’m adding this for no reason other than I always loved this picture from the Belmont.
Indeed, 30 years of breeding for speed have not erased the Derby record. Part of that, IMHO, is because America has become so crazed for speed–there are very few horses who run in races that are the Belmont’s 1 1/2 mile distance anymore. Major stakes that used to be at that distance have been shortened to 1 1/4 miles. The vast majority of races at this (and longer) distances are now reserved for the turf.
People are speed-breed-nuts because it, in the short run, is more likely to return on the owner’s investment. 2-year-olds typically race around the sprint distance of 6 furlongs or so, with very, very few races at a mile or more. If you breed a speed-loving colt from, say, the Mr. Prospector line, you may have a top 2yro because it can sprint. But go the additional half mile for the Derby? Or three-quarters for the Belmont? Unlikely. It is partially this reason, IMHO, that there hasn’t been a 2yro Champion, nor a Breeder’s Cup Juvenile winner, to win the Derby since 1979.
It is my belief that Secretariat’s Belmont record is permanent–the American breeding industry is not focused on stamina, but speed. Winning Belmont times are reflecting this. (And I’m a little bitter! I love the routes.)
I wonder, then, if Secretariat could’ve beat some of the more modern superstars at shorter distances. He was a big horse with a long stride, and it took him a while to get rolling. He was, indeed, like a big train–took a while to get going, but once he did, there was no stopping him.
That’s what makes questions like this so hard to answer. Neither Secretariat nor Man o’ War would beat Dr. Fager, IMHO, at a sprint, and Cigar wouldn’t fare well against Secretariat, Man o’ War, or Kelso in a 2-mile contest. We breed for different things these days, so it isn’t entirely fair to compare horses from different generations with solely the idea of who’d win head-to-head in mind.
As for:
We will never be satisfied, then. Is the race a mile? Under a mile? Mile and a half? What track surface? What other horses are in the race? (It is important, actually, to have a variety–match races tend to be all about speed…who can get the jump on the other horse. That’s how Seabiscuit beat War Admiral.)
We’ll never know, but it’s fun to think about! (And talk about!)
Just to put a british twist in…
You can’t forget Red Rum!!!
**I have read that too, that he was often last out of the gate, but that he was just too much horse to keep back.
**I agree, there is no definitive answer. Personally, I have always considered the triple crown races as the standard, in the same way that golf majors are the real yardstick for golfers. But I have no real argument for this other than they are the races I have always focused on (as someone fascinated with, but far from expert on, the sport).
I again agree!
Tell us about him!
I am by now means an expert on horse racing and I’m even less qualified to speak on the history of the sport in the US but I do think that one of the reasons that Secretariat is so highly regarded is due to the emphasis that Americans place on the Triple Crown. I feel that there is little doubt that Secretariat is the greatest performer in Triple Crown history and his performances there, particularly at the Belmont, are the stuff of folklore.
However, I do think that this is somewhat problematic when comparing horse’s entire careers (as if it wasn’t hard enough already) since some horses go onto greatness after the age of 3 and many horses are not really mature at that stage.
It is no fault of horses like Secretariat or Seattle Slew that their careers are cut short to begin their tenures at stud but I do believe that horses with longer careers should be considered to have achieved more and consequently should be regarded as greater than horses with shorter, more untarnished records. Longevity in a sport of frequent injury and extremely specialised physiology is an achievement to be noted in of itself. The ability to maintain a high level of performance across many years is also an exceptional quality.
To this end, I have seen a horse from North America which stands out as a legend of the sport and that horse is Cigar. The winner of a record 16 consecutive races, the winner of the Dubai World Cup (world’s richest race) and highest stakes winner in racing history (I believe it is the world record, correct me if I am wrong). In the recent international racing scene, the Irish horse Singspiel also deserves mention for winning the Japan Cup and Dubai World Cup, an unequalled achievement.
Of course, that doesn’t answer the question of who I think is the greatest horse of all time nor which was the best (who would win some fantasy match race). I wouldn’t have a clue but the best horses which I have seen in my short lifetime are the two horses mentioned above and a couple of Antipodean horses named Kingston Town and Sunline. Now I know a little bit about racing’s history in a few countries but if there have been horses better than those in the past, I would have loved to have seen them.
Red Rum is possibly the greatest ever British racing horse, with an unparralled record. His body is burried just next to the winners post in Aintree.
(talking about the British Grand National)
However, this was in a steeplechase event (the one with the jumping ) so might not quite be what you’re after.
Also, I haven’t a clue how he did as a stud. Anyone else know?
The Triple Crown races really shouldn’t be considered the standard, as they are restricted to three-year-olds. Though the three Triple Crown races are probably the most prestigious in the US, the fields are hardly ever as good as those in the Breeder’s Cup in late October. Most horses don’t peak until they’re older than three, anyway. Also: remember Cigar? Never won a Triple Crown race, but could most likely have crushed many of the modern-day Derby, Preakness, or Belmont winners.
As for the “Who would win?” question, comparing horses of different eras is nearly impossible, as track and race conditions were vastly different. The racetrack surfaces were several seconds slower in Man O’ War’s day than in Secretariat’s. As Ruffian said, you’d need conditions for the race, and even then, anything can happen in a horse race. A horse could fall, unseat his or her jockey, foul another horse, etc.
It’s still fun to speculate though! I tend to think that Man O’ War might have been better than Secretariat, but I like Secretariat more than Man O’ War. However, I don’t think there was or ever will be a horse who could beat Secretariat on Belmont day in 1973. Another interesting racehorse is a Hungarian filly called Kincsem who won all 54 of her races, some under absolutely staggering weights. Here is a nice summary of Kincsem’s career.
When did Phar Lap become a North American horse? 
Well, he raced in Mexico once, in the Agua Caliente Handicap.
I recently got to see Cigar at the Kentucky Horse Park. He’s still a son of a bitch!
Just a quick honorable mention to Sham, the horse that finished 2 1/2 lengths behind Secretariat in the 1973 Kentucky Derby. Sham’s time would have made him the winner of any other Kentucky Derby, IIRC. Quite a feat, especially when you consider that he was kicked in the chops as he was being loaded into the gate – he ran the race with a broken tooth!
Regarding Phar Lap…there is a correction. The book isn’t called the top 100 American racehorses, just Thoroughbred Champions: Top 100 Racehorses of the 20th Century. But, looking through the book, it’s pretty obvious it is just horses that made at least one start on this continent. No Mill Reef, no Nijinsky II, no Sunline…
Some interesting notes about Phar Lap from the book:
That closing comment came as a result of this bizarre, and tragic, twist of fate:
His story made for a great movie, BTW, long before Seabiscuit. Worth a rental, if you can find it!
BTW, my screenname-sake is #35–the highest ranking filly/mare on the list.
Avarie, I’ve seen Cigar a few times at KHP and he was completely gentlemanly, even affectionate. How was he a SOB? The one who, age notwithstanding, remains a jerk over there is John Henry, at least in my experience (and in their pre-parade-of-champions show warnings).