Tsugumo, “Rope-a-dope” was the technique Ali used in “the Rumble in the Jungle”, the very publicized match-up of Ali against George Foreman (in Foreman’s younger days, first time career boxer), held in Africa. Two black men boxing in Africa. Foreman was a bigger guy, and a harder hitter.
Ali spent the first half of the mat getting pounded by Foreman. He would sit back against the ropes of the ring, lean way back, covering his face and torso with his arms, and let Foreman pound on him. Then at the end of the match, he came out of it and proceeded to return the favor to Foreman, who was tired and not well protected. Ali won. The rope-a-dope referred to his hanging back on the ropes for so long.
There was a documentary made that was finally released a couple years ago, filmed at the time and took two decades (or more) to actually get finished, because of funding problems and political stuff. It was very interesting, even for me, who doesn’t follow boxing. I forget the name of the movie. Something with the word King in it.
Depends on what kind of fight. If you’re talking an all out, knock-down drag-out, no holds barred, deathmatch, I’d say Bruce Lee. Simply because Bruce is going to hit targets that Ali isn’t used to protecting - like knees, kidneys, etc. Although a confined area might allow some advantage to Ali, being more used to bobbing in place. But remember, Ali could float like a butterfly, too. He knew how to move around.
Now if you’re talking about a sporting bout (even hard contact), then I think it’s going to depend on the rules. Obviously if you constrain the rules, you can convey the advantage any way you want. Using boxing rules, Ali definitely has the advantage and I’d bet on him. If Lee can’t kick, he’s got to deal with that limitation. Assume Lee can use hands and feet, but limit targets, i.e. no eye-gouging, no knee breaking, no biting ears, etc. It would be tough to call.
Silvio said:
You’ve got to be kidding. While Lee made a lot of movies, and some show biz techniques were used, he definitely had the ability. He was frequently challenged to fights simply because of his reputation, and he wasn’t one to back down from challenges. And he won them. There’s commentary about filming Enter the Dragon and having to deal with the extras.
Initial Entry said:
I disagree. Boxing is a punishing sport. Look at how long boxers train, and how hard they prepare, for each match. Compare that with, say, kickboxing matches (muy thai). Compare boxers with full contact sport karate champions (Bill “Superfoot” Wallace). And I don’t buy that stuff about martial artists having secret power to rupture internal organs. Bah! Good technique, practice, and strength, but not mystical powers.
iampunha said:
How much do you know about Ali’s style? Admittedly I don’t know that much (never really followed boxing), but Ali had a very good ability to move around, and use the ring, and work the ring to his advantage. Ali wasn’t a stand-in-one-place type of guy (well, except for the rope-a-dope). Though to be fair, boxing is more of a direct attack type style.
Lee would certainly have superior ground technique. Once grounded, the fight would likely be over in a few seconds. The question is really whether or not Ali could stay standing long enough to deliver his devastating blows.
I had a MUCH longer post, then I accidentally refreshed the page before I submitted it. SIGH. Don’t you just hate that?
ANYWAY… I had a bunch of points I wanted to make, but for now I’ll just offer two salient observations.
We’re arguing about a match-up between a skinny little movie actor and a proven fighter more powerful, just as fast, with a longer reach and four inch height advantage --who had taken on some of the toughest opponents in boxing and was never ONCE rendered unconscious, as though this were actually a viable match-up?
Ali’s ability to climb into his opponents’ heads to play mind games with his motormouth is one of the most effective weapons he brought to his already formidable arsenal. Ali talked sh!t before, during, and after his matches. He never shut up. Lee was a sickly foreign actor with a lisp who couldn’t get a break into Hollywood and whose two biggest media roles were 1) playing sidekick to the Green Hornet and 2) getting replaced by a white man in “Kung Fu” – ohhhhh, Ali would have had a field day with that material.
Ali in three rounds, two if he needs to go to the bathroom.
I agree with an earlier post…it is impossible to tell how much of Lee was show-biz and tricks. And Ali was a man simply used to taking a beating, and giving one. I put $1000 on Ali.
Bruce was a martial artist, THEN an actor, not the other way around. Honestly I’ve never thought of him as a very good actor either…I’ve only seen his movies though, maybe he did better in the Green Hornet. The guy had to slow down so the camera could catch his moves.
I don’t follow boxing, but I doubt he had fingers jammed in his eyes, strong (really strong) kicks into his knees, etc. I’m not saying he’s weak (obviously not), but in an all out fight he’d have way more things to watch out for that he wouldn’t be used to.
No idea how good he was at that, but Bruce was a Chinese man growing up in America so I’m pretty sure he’d had his fill of trash talk from people and it wouldn’t phase him.
Ali was 6’ 3", weighed 210 pounds and had a lethal 82 inch reach.
Lee was a measly 5’ 7", weighed maybe 145 pounds and (I’m guessing), had a reach of maaaaybe 78 inches – more like 72.
If you saw these two getting ready to throw down on the playground, who would YOU go with?
On the practice and philosophy of Jeet Kune Do, the martial art expounded and developed by the late Bruce Lee. You need to read this if you want to know why I really don’t see how Bruce could win:
The above passage, taken from this web site, http://home1.gte.net/jeettek/, seems to presume this about Lee: that far from being a jumping, running, flying drop-kick, whirling dervish of uncatchable motion in a fight that lot of you THINK he’d be, Lee wouldn’t use a lot of unnecessary techniques to fight Ali; that all the eye-gouging, foot-crushing, knee-cap shattering kicks mumbo-jumbo Lee advocates have assumed he’d use are just movie stunts. Not even Bruce Lee movies – I haven’t seen one yet where BRUCE LEE attacks people’s knees and stuff like that. (Except when he’s using nunchakas – never in unarmed combat.)
What they said makes perfect sense. Lee’d conserve his strength and rely on a small but effective repetoire of techniques and look for an opening to take Ali out with a perfectly executed punch. And in doing so, he’d lose badly, too.
Ali’s boxing career, in martial arts terms, was made by pressing his hooking attack and blunting his opponent’s straight attack, no matter how fast or strong it was. He was very good at it too: few people could deflect, throw or even take a punch like Ali.
Joe Frazier once said he threw punches at Ali that could tear buildings down. What the HELL can Lee bring to the table in terms of speed and sheer power that Smoking Joe couldn’t?
Ali was an unparalleled champion in a profession that trained men to render opponents completely unconscious with their fists. He knew how to absorb pain. He knew how to deliver punches. While Lee is a commendable fighter who could, on some days, seriously hurt Ali, I just do not believe that Lee could take Ali at his fighting best, even at his fighting best.
I mean, let’s face it – if, in accordance with Jeet Kune Do, it’s Bruce Lee’s intention to finish off Ali immediately with a open palmed strike to the throat – who says he’s fast enough? I mean, Ali slapped away punches like I brush off fruit flies. Ali’s whole professional career was spent guarding head. Aside from the narcassistic bravado of the Rope-A-Dope, (“Hit me, fool! I can take anything you got!”) Ali was not a dumb fighter.
I remain convinced in a unarmed match-up Ali would win decidedly. Only now, doing a little more research, I don’t see how this would move past round two.
Actually, demonstration I saw lee do in some documentary, the knee is exactly what he would go for. I forget the exact dialog, but he basically said if someone is coming towards you to attack you, you attack thier nearest target the knee, with the attack with the longest reach( sidekick). The stuff he did in movies had nothing to do with what he would do in real life
Assuming that they both fight under the same rules, and have the opportunity to train under those rules, for say, a year, Ali wins fairly easily. The best big guy always beats the best small guy, other things being equal.
The pro Lee side assumes that Lee can kick Ali, but Ali can’t kick back, but with a year or so of training, Ali would be kicking with the best of them. He could learn to use his feet just as effectively as he used his fists.
Both men were tremendous athletes, with world class strength, speed, vision, coordination, but Ali was massive. In order to deliver a blow, Lee would have to come within Ali’s range, in in so doing sustain an enourmous amount of punishment. Ali could hold off Lee’s attack’s relatively easily by dancing away and covering up.
In a knock down, drag out fight like the UFC, it usually comes down to grappling, and here Lee is giving up 80 lbs or so. Even in kick boxing, regular kicks become too tiring to keep up, and it breaks down to sparring.
It would be tough to call.