Posted again because once again I managed to make a balls-up of the poll in the first one. One of the arguments for the ages, I want it settled. Been discussed here on the Dope 10 (!) years ago but I want to see what prevailing opinion is now.
Assume both men are in their prime; the world’s most legendary martial artist against the world’s most legendary boxer… Two scenarios; one is in the ring, for sport and glory, supervised.
The other, a street fight where both men are fighting for their lives, unsupervised and no rules.
I have a very strong feeling that one of these combatants would murder the other in either scenario, but I want to see opinion and the case for the other fighter.
I personally think Ali would trounce the smaller Lee in either scenario.
If any of the stories about him were remotely true, Bruce was ungodly fast. I mean, Ali was fast and nimble but Lee was really fast. So while he probably couldn’t take a hit as well as Ali, he’d be a lot more successful at not getting hit in the first place.
In the ring under boxing rules and wearing gloves, I think Ali has a much better chance on his home turf and Lee would be handicapped by being restricted in what he can do. But make it a mixed martial arts match and Ali is going down (eventually).
You’re correct in the assumption; by ‘in the ring’ I mean a standard supervised sporting match with the established rules (no biting no gouging etc), whereas in the street anything goes no matter how dirty.
Ali had at least 75 pounds on Lee. He was extremely fast, agile, tough, and very difficult to hit. Lee wouldn’t have a chance in a fair fight.
The martial arts fan boys won’t like hearing this, but Bruce Lee was not in very many real fights. Kung Fu is very similar to professional wrestling. Real fights are rare because the combatants could kill each other. Most fights were staged, or held under limiting rules. Bruce Lee receieved more punishment in stunt accidents than he ever did in real combat.
A better comparison would be Bruce Lee against Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacquiao. Here Lee would be at a big disadvantage in the ring, but hold a clear edge in a street fight.
I don’t have the cite–I saw this in a magazine years ago–but part of Bruce Lee’s boxing training was to project a film of Ali on one wall, then imitate his moves facing a mirror on the opposite wall. Boxing was a huge component of Jeet Kune Do, as even the staged fights in Enter the Dragon make very clear.
Anyway, one of Lee’s associates saw him training this way and asked him how he’d do against Ali. Lee made a fist and said: “You see this? It’s a little Chinese hand. Ali would kill me!” I’ll take Lee’s word for it. In a unified-rules MMA match, Lee might have a chance because he studied grappling and submissions while Ali did not. If Ali trained MMA for about three months, though, about 70% of that advantage would be negated, and I’d lay odds at about 6-1 against Bruce.
ETA: If Ali doesn’t study grappling at all–say, the match was a unified-rules MMA bout made in 1969 when both men were in their prime and they both did their usual training without any enrichment–then I’d favor Lee slightly. Bruce Lee was trained in ground submissions by Gene LeBell, and the early UFCs showed us what happens when a guy who knows submissions goes in with someone who doesn’t.
Is this boxing? Because Bruce Lee doesn’t have a chance in a boxing match against a heavier, stronger, taller opponent who’s studied nothing but boxing. If you’re allowing kicks, though, I think the odds shift toward Lee significantly, and if it’s a full-on MMA fight, I think Lee has an even chance. In a street fight, I expect Lee to disable one of Lee’s legs fairly quickly and for the fight to get ugly for Ali from there.
I voted for Ali in the ring, but Lee on the street. Regarding the street fight, I was envisioning an actual street, with sufficient area for Lee to run around a bit and get Ali worn down chasing the smaller man. I was also thinking that Lee might be more proficient with make-shift weapons than Ali – conveniently-placed nunchaku probably wouldn’t be available, but maybe Lee could get ahold of a broomstick or something.
Should have clarified more; consider it in the same vein as a modern-day MMA match-up, in that either man can use whichever style they please but there are still rules and regulations in place for safety and sporting purposes.
In the ring? Ali, no question. He had size, reach and intense training focused on nothing except boxing.
On the street? Probably Lee. Ali would’ve had no experience with dealing with kicks and one good hard snap kick to the side of the knee and he’s on the ground unable to walk. Lee then proceeds to dance around Ali, kicking him at will. If Ali were to grab Lee, I’d still give Bruce the edge due to training, but unless he could get in a good submission or blood stranglehold quickly, Ali’s size and strength are still a factor.
I think Ali would have a hard time against Lee and would suffer long term detrimental effects as a result of the fight, if it were MMA style. Ali fought Antonio Inoki in 1976. Inoki spent much of the fight on the ground trying to damage Ali’s legs, while Ali spent most of the fight dodging the kicks or staying on the ropes. Although it was a draw, Ali suffered cuts to his legs, resulting in infection and two blood clots, hampering his mobility in the long term. Granted, both men were about 10 years past their prime, but had Lee fought Ali prior to 1967, he probably could have done damage to a 23 or 24 year old Ali and greatly hampered Ali’s further career.
In a straight-up boxing match with gloves, however, no contest. Ali all the way.
Inoki was the bigger man in that fight, and as you note, both were past their prime. But if look at MMA fights, you’ll see dominance by punchers who have knock-out power. This is why I think Ali is the winner in any venue, he can easily take out Lee in one punch. There is also the issue of stamina. I’m sure Lee was in great condition. But I doubt he ever was involved in anything as grueling as a 15 round championship boxing match.
It is possible that a match between Ali and Lee also becomes something of a stalemate in any conditions, with neither willing to expose themselves to the other’s strength.
It depends who can get their first attack in. Either fighter has the capability to instantly disable and win against the other.
If Ali lands his too-quick-to-react-to jab on Bruce, then Bruce goes down quickly.
If Bruce can get within the jab and flurry his eye, groin, neck, knee strikes into Ali, then Ali goes down quickly.
My money is on Bruce, since (like Batman), he has intimately studied his opponents style and technique and already has a tactic planned to avoid Ali’s jab.
Why do we think Bruce Lee can fight? I mean, I’m sure he’s a lot better than your average guy, but he never defeated a pro or significant amatuer in a fight, as far as I am aware.
The only reason big punchers have had success in MMA is that they put in countless hours learning how to stuff takedowns and avoid submissions. Without that practice, they’re toast against an NCAA wrestler or jiujitsu black belt. Look at the biggest punchers in MMA. Chuck Liddell? Wrestled at Cal Poly. Rampage Jackson? Wrestled JuCo at Lassen. Shane Carwin? National (D-II) champion at Western. Anderson Silva? Black Belt in jiujitsu. Even the few MMA fighters who don’t have great amateur grappling backgrounds have filled this in with LOTS of training as a pro. What you’re seeing isn’t a case of overwhelming punchers coming in and winning. What you’re seeing is very good wrestlers who have developed impressive enough punching to win by KO. If you think a fighter can win with striking alone, I suggest you look up James Toney.
As far as conditioning goes, both men were among the fittest athletes of their time. It shouldn’t be a factor, but I would actually give the edge to the much lighter Lee. If you watch MMA or boxing, you see big guys gas much more readily than fighters at lighter weights.
Gargoyle, if we’re talking about boxing, you’re absolutely right. Bruce Lee wouldn’t last the national anthem.
If we’re talking MMA, it’s much closer because Lee was so much more holistic in his training. I remember what Gorilla Monsoon said: Ali was a great boxer, but he couldn’t tell a wristlock from a wristwatch. He’d have a very hard time with Lee unless he had a very serious MMA training camp.
As a side note, Bruce Lee vs. Dan Gable with MMA rules would be darned interesting, assuming Gable had the opportunity to train in muay thai beforehand. Bruce Lee vs. Helio Gracie would have been interesting, too.
In an MMA style fight, Ali always has a shot at a knockout, but in the majority of encounters, Bruce is going to take it. IMO, he deals with Ali’s striking by dancing out of range and hitting Ali’s arms. See also, “The way of the intercepting fist.”
Ali was an exceptionally fast heavyweight. Lee was fast period. His martial arts style emphasized short range power and speed, but above all, fluidity with the changing conditions. Ali spent his entire life training for very rigid fight conditions. Ali was a pretty smart fighter, but Lee spent a ton of time refining his technique for every conceivable situation.
I’m sure people will just pass it off as “being nice” to a dead guy, but Chuck Norris has said that in his opinion had Lee chosen to fight, he would have been a world champion. Norris trained a fair bit with Lee, so I think his statement was legitimate.
I believe he said a welterweight or lightweight champion. No match for one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. Also people may be fooled by Ali’s demeanor and ‘butterfly’ style. If he got hurt, he was vicious and dangerous in the ring. With Lee having to start outside of Ali’s reach, Ali could have hurt him badly no matter how fast he came in.
Now if you throw Ali into either an MMA or street fight with no advance notice, Lee gets some advantage. But assuming Ali in his prime, and having time to prepare, he wins either way.