I ask because I’m currently watching this old black and white match of Muhammad Ali from 1966 on ESPN classic, and some challenger named George Chuvalo. Chuvalo is obviously an experienced boxer with plenty of power, but he can barely lay a glove on Ali, who moves his head out fo the way a fraction of a second before the blows connect.
It’s really quite remarkable to watch. Was there ever any heavyweight boxer with this kind of quickness before or after Ali, that compared with Ali in his prime?
Well. The dude could float like a butterfly & sting like a bee :smack: fer chrissakes!
But cereal, I asked my old man (who is not in the least sentimental about such things) and he said that watching this fellah box was like watching Da Vinci paint, like hearing Robin Williams do improv, like eating chocolate mousse, like touching a breast under silk…
Well Ok, that last bit was mine, but my impression & recollection is that Ali was ‘state of the art.’ Like Joe Lewis, Babe Ruth & Audey Murphey. Could they have been bested by their top of the line counterparts in 2004? Maybe. But if Ali’s talent & physical prowess could be duplicated and trained up to modern standards (counting for inflation) … well … bet on the man.
Muhammed Ali was the greatest. Not just because of his boxing skill, which was incomparable, but because of his sparkling wit and his articulate grace with the press. He could draw headlines wherever he went. He changed boxing from a sweat-and-cigars insider thing to a spectacle where everyone in the world knew his name. Just as Aretha will be the Queen of Soul forever, and Elvis will always be the King of Rock ‘n’ Roll, Ali will always be The Greatest.
Hands down, the greatest of all time. He revolutionized boxing with his style. Probably the greatest thing about Ali was that he brought an intellectualism into the ring, something the world had never witnessed before or after his reign.
Slight hijack …
Sugar Ray Leonard copied Ali’s boxing style and was very successful with it. I would say the greatest boxing matches I have seen were the Leonard / Hearns fights.
Chuvalo wasn’t much of a boxer.
Ali was great, though it’s difficult to compare. In addition to being gifted physically, he was smart. He invented trash talking, and could adjust his style to anything you threw at him.
His biggest strength was his reach. He had longer arms than most boxers and used this brilliantly, letting him strike hard and often and still keeping out of range of his opponent. If you tried to bear in, he’d just dance away.
I don’t watch much boxing, but I recently saw a special on the Ali-Frazier fights. What struck me was that Ali was incredibly fast; his punches seem so much quicker than heavyweights today. It’s probably all perception (especially since any heavyweights I see today are on the undercard of the Friday Night Fights at Joe’s Bar & Grill, but still…
OK I will be the stink in the punch bowl at the Ali party. I think he follows Joe Louis who was, if not as fast as Ali, was as close not to matter, was a more powerful puncher and had a better record in his prime years (& over-all) than Ali (Meaning no equivalent Loss to Frazier or Norton in Title Fights before age 33).
I would put Ali way, way up there as the total package “boxer”. But he had weaknesses. As a pure puncher he wasn’t even among the top 4 Heavyweight punchers of HIS time, let alone ALL time (Frazier, Foreman, Shavers and Liston all packed more power).My Cite for that
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Ring%20Magazine’s%20list%20of%20100%20greatest%20punchers%20of%20all%20time
As to hand speed and rankings many (most?) of those rinky dink comparisons doing different boxers of different ears put Louis first. Here is a cite for that & yes, the last paragraph shows what I am saying is no slam dunk. If Ali wasn’t #1 he was #1a … but I think that* is * where he is properly placed.
http://www.skybook.com/alltimegreats_boxing_louis.asp
BTW, IMHO What made Ali special early wasn’t so much the hand speed – which was terrific and unique – but that he fought so much with his hands at his side moving and reacting to dodge punches. You see those early fights and it is really hard not to watch that and say “Wow”.
Cheetah runs the fastest
Whale swims the deepest
Elephant is the strongest
…but the one that dominates them all doesn’t compare to any of their specialties.
that was unusually zen-like. Must be time to go home.
Tyson was the greatest during his Cus D’Amato days. He would of been hands down the best if he had not been a pyscho and spiraled down the way he did. Pit Ali vs. Tyson (Early Years) and Tyson I’m sure would win.
I dunno. Everyone was sure Foreman would beat Ali, too and for much the same reasons - Foreman had been ripping people apart very quickly. Instead of beating Ali, Foreman fell prey to one of the most famous boxing ploys of all time.
Ali. The Greatest.
Foreman was Tyson, but bigger and better. Frazier was motivated and capable beyond most boxers ever to step into the ring.
Ali had fast feet, hands, moves and the most accurate jabs ever. Actually, he had the fastest and most accurate everything amongst his peers. Dude could take a beating for a pretty boy, too!
Whenever I used to hem and haw about whether he was 1, 1a or 2 on the list of the best, I just watch the Frazier matches and top it with the Foreman fight. I mean, to this day, I shake my head…like…“Are you kidding me? Did Ali just do that?”
For the longest time I loathed him…and all my Italian relatives would prop up Rocky Marciano as the greatest. Ali carved through years of heavy handed bias built into my brain, and when I could truly appreciate what he has done, and to whom he has done it, I just shake my head - almost in disbelief.
I wish I had my epiphany earlier.
My boxing gurus would tell you that sticking Tyson in the same sentence is an insult of epic proportions. And I loved Tyson.
To answer the OP, “Yes.”
As has been noted, Ali had a lot of everything, speed, power, but one of the most amazing things was the way he could just lean back, juuuust out of reach of an opponent’s glove, or the way he could move his head juuuust to the side and have an opponents glove sail past his ear. Incredible.
Ali was also one of only two people I’ve ever seen knock out a person while walking backwards, the other being Sugar Ray Robinson.
Tyson was truly great. The difference between Ali and Tyson, though, was Ali’s adaptability. That was of course a result of his intelligence and personality, but the boxing manifestation was adaptability. Ali could change his game from opponent to opponent, or even round to round, to suit the situation. Just watch a tape of Ali beating Foreman, of Ali beating Frazier, and of Ali beating, well, anyone else; it’s as if you’re sort of watching the same guy, but sort of watching a different guy.
On the other hand, watch the tape of Tyson losing to Buster Douglas. Douglas, who is much taller than Tyson and had at least six inches of reach on him, spends ten straight rounds fighting the most disciplined fight you will ever see, standing as far from Tyson as he can and hitting him with jabs and straights, adamantly refusing to come inside for any reason save one mistake in the eighth round. Tyson spends ten rounds not really knowing how to deal with that; he simply did not have the ability to change his plan to adapt to Douglas. After ten round of getting punched more or less nonstop he finally collapsed. Ali would have found a way to adapt to Douglas’s strategy. Tyson could not.
There have probably been heavyweights as smart as Ali; George Foreman is really quite bright. There may have been heavyweights who were as quick. There have certainly been heavyweights who were stronger. But nobody was better than Ali at all three.
Philster, I was the same way.
One thing that’s not often mentioned about Ali, he could really take a punch.
He took a lot of punishment from “Frayzhuh.” as well as Foreman and Norton, for that matter. He took an incredible beating in his rope-a-dope victory.
He didn’t have the punching power of those others, but he wasn’t a pussy puncher either.
Total Package.
“He was the toughest man I ever fought” - Muhammad Ali on George Chuvalo (cited here, here, here and here.)
Let’s not forget Ali had a side-kick named Howard Cosell. (Down goes Frazier! Down goes Frazier!)
I remember once Howard told Ali he was being rather truculent. Ali replied, I don’t know what truculent means, but if it means good, then yeah I am being truculent. 
Records courtesy http://www.boxrec.com/
Only Marciano retired undefeated.
Ali…56-5-0
Marciano…49-0-0
Frazier…32-4-1
Foreman…76-5-0
Leonard…36-3-1
I don’t know, that’s really apples and oranges. You have to consider the era and the competition.
I remember a “computer simulation” they did back when Ali was on top. They pitted Ali against Marciano, all other things being equal. If I remember correctly, Marciano knocked Ali out in the late rounds. We’ll never know for sure.
From this link:
http://p073.ezboard.com/fmaxboxingmessageboardsfrm9.showMessageRange?topicID=96.topic&start=1&stop=20
Also the Marciano-Clay/Ali computer fight was done during Cassius/Muhammed exile that Uncle Sam unfairly took away his right to earn a living as a prize fighter. Plus let me add another thing you’s is unaware of. That computer thing between Ali/Clay vs. Marciano had “2” yes dos endings. One with Ali/Clay winning and one with Rocky winning. Bet you’s was unaware of that weren’t ya?
I never saw Marciano. He was obviously very good, and very tough.
I think it would be extremely difficult to compare the two. But to see Clay/ Ali beat that monster Sonny Liston was pretty good.
eeeee. . .how much bigger? Tyson wasn’t that big by today’s standards, but he fought at around 217-220 when he was young, didn’t he?
I didn’t think Foreman was much bigger than that, but I can’t find numbers. He wasn’t 230 or anything though, was he? (I’m talking 1970’s Foreman of course).
Was Foreman better than young Tyson?
One thing people miss about Tyson was how hard he was to hit when he was young. He had tremendous power – at least as much as Foremans, but like Ali, could slip punches VERY well and when he got inside, it was “watch out brother.” He had great head movement.
Like RickJay said, Douglass was able to foil Tyson from getting inside, and Tyson just couldn’t adapt. You also saw Lewis do it with ease against Mike. Of course that was a different Tyson.
Yeah, well, a lot of guru’s in all sports think that no one of today’s era in anything compare to guys from the past.
Some baseball guys still think Bonds shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence as Mays.