Who's afraid of the Christian Fascists?

[uglybeech]

Has anyone read the current issue of Harper’s (“Soldier’s of Christ”)? It’s one long paranoid rant (comprising four separate articles) against the (extreme?) religious right. Personally I love paranoid rants against the religious right and this was great stuff. I encourage everyone to get it - even the religious right should get it to see what is being said of them.

The final article was by Chris Hedges “Feeling the Hate with the National Religious Broadcasters.” Which talked at length about the Christian Dominionists (nee Christian Reconstructionists) who are actively working to create a Christian theocratic nation and who supposedly have taken over the “microphone” at the recent convention of the National Religious Broadcasters. I really wish I could link to Hedges’ article, but Harper’s never puts their current issue on the web. So I’ll swipe the final paragraphs (that someone had helpfully posted on their blog), where Hedges gets to his point which is to warn us of the danger of “Christian fascism”:

"I can’t help but recall the words of my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School, Dr. James Luther Adams, who told us that when we were his age, and he was then close to eighty, we would all be fighting the ‘Christian fascists.’

He gave us that warning twenty-five years ago, when Pat Robertson and other prominent evangelists began speaking of a new political religion that would direct its efforts at taking control of all major American institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government, so as to transform the United States into a global Christian empire. At the time, it was hard to take such fantastic rhetoric seriously. But fascism**, Adams warned, would not return wearing swastikas and brown shirts. Its ideological inheritors would cloak themselves in the language of the Bible; they would come carrying crosses and chanting the Pledge of Allegiance**.

Adams had watched American intellectuals and industrialists flirt with fascism in the 1930s. Mussolini’s ‘Corporatism,’ which created an unchecked industrial and business aristocracy, had appealed to many at the time as an effective counterweight to the New Deal. In 1934, Fortune magazine lavished praise on the Italian dictator for his defanging of labor unions and his empowerment of industrialists at the expense of workers. Then as now, Adams said, too many liberals failed to understand the power and allure of evil, and when the radical Christians came, these people would undoubtedly play by the old, polite rules of democracy long after those in power had begun to dismantle the democratic state. Adams had watched German academics fall silent or conform. He knew how desperately people want to believe the comfortable lies told by totalitarian movements, how easily those lies lull moderates into passivity.

Adams told us to watch closely the Christian right’s persecution of homosexuals and lesbians. Hitler, he reminded us, promised to restore moral values not long after he took power in 1933, then imposed a ban on all homosexual and lesbian organizations and publications. Then came raids on the places where homosexuals gathered, culminating in May 6, 1933, with the ransacking of the Institute for Sexual Science in Berlin. Twelve thousand volumes from the institute’s library were tossed into a public bonfire. Homosexuals and lesbians, Adams said, would be the first ‘deviants’ singled out by the Christian right. We would be the next."

You can also hear Chris Hedges talk about his article on this NPR On Point episode. The show is particularly useful because you can hear Harvard Divinity School Professor Harvey Cox rightly dispute Hedges’ alarmism by saying that the Dominionists are not representative and are distracted by their own factional differences in any event. I think Hedges also rightly counters that Cox underestimates the potential power of the extremist minority. Hedges spent a whole book (“War is a Force that Gives us Meaning”) analyzing how minority extremism rapidly crowds out sensible discourse during wartime so I think he’s speaking from long experience as a war correspondent on that issue.

Now I’ll admit my near total ignorance of the dynamics of the religious right - and frankly of the republican party here. I don’t know how much power the “theocrats” actually hold in relation to either the evangelical wing or the republican party as a whole. (Though whatever their actual power is, it’s clearly on the rise). I’m also a historical pessimist, who thinks that reasonable discourse and pluralism are held together by the thinnest of threads in the best of times, so I’m quite receptive to alarmism like this.

But I DO know that the Republican party is engaged in a concerted effort to consolidate their power far beyond what IMHO any party can safely hold. I’m also pretty sure that they’ll be nearly totally unopposed in power in all branches of government within the next few years. I also see the Patriot Act et al as at the very least making serious dissent a more dangerous proposition to your average citizen. I see it as a bit of a chess game. Once that power is unopposed they will probably go to town for their causes. The only question I have is - will it be Christian fascists or Neocons or what who are in charge? Who’s using who?

Thoughts?

[elucidator]

And the economic/neo-con conservatives liquidate the God goons in a bloody purge that comes to be known as the “Night of the Long Fondue Forks”.

[Zoe]

The only question I have is - will it be Christian fascists or Neocons or what who are in charge? Who’s using who?

The political right (not particularly the neocons) and the religious right are using each other. In my opinion, many on the political right are aware that they are manipulating the religious right for their own benefit. William Frist, for example, is playing the game, but rather artlessly. He’s a fake fundamentalist.

The religious right is using conservative Republicans to further their own agendas. When the Republicans have had enough of it, the fundamentalists won’t give a toot and will vote them out of office and vote still more conservative candidates in.

The church where I grew up was not a fundamentalist church. And the denomination itself was and is very moderate. This week I got a bulletin from that church thats message was in full support of former Judge Roy Moore who was removed from his office as a State Supreme Court Justice in Alabama for refusing to remove the Ten Commandments from the Court House steps. The bulletin said that the SCOTUS had acted “unconstitutionally” and that our country was founded on “His Word.”

Combine such ignorance, political power, and religious zealotry with media owned mostly by about five conglomerates and then add neocons and boom goes the dynamite.

Or maybe there will be a quiet revolution of decent, rational people from many points of view.

[cosmosdan]

The Christian extremists seem to convince themselves that this lieing hypocrtical power hungry administration is actually representing better values for America based primarily on their anti gay and anti abortion platform. What I see is a move toward the concept of America being a Christian nation and although we tolerate other religions Christianity actually called dibbs because of our founding fathers. Now certain Christian traditions are being threatened and challenged and they respond as if they are being attacked as a religion.

I see the extreme right as trying to corrupt democracy and alter the checks and balances put in by our founding fathers. The Christian right will allow that to happen and accept any denial story if the neocons deliver progress in anti abortion action against gay rights. See the recent laws in Texas against gay foster parents.

A lot of good people are complacent because they can’t imagine this type of thing happening in the home of the free and land of the brave. Believeing might require action which might require sacrifice. I think it’s also true that the Democrats still aren’t offering any alternative that seems any better than the same old political bullshit.

[cosmosdan]

@Zoe

.
The church where I grew up was not a fundamentalist church. And the denomination itself was and is very moderate. This week I got a bulletin from that church thats message was in full support of former Judge Roy Moore who was removed from his office as a State Supreme Court Justice in Alabama for refusing to remove the Ten Commandments from the Court House steps. The bulletin said that the SCOTUS had acted “unconstitutionally” and that our country was founded on “His Word.”

Combine such ignorance, political power, and religious zealotry with media owned mostly by about five conglomerates and then add neocons and boom goes the dynamite.

Or maybe there will be a quiet revolution of decent, rational people from many points of view.

Pardon my ignorence. What is SCOTUS?
I have been gettting those Christian bullitins in my Email warning people that the liberals are trying to stop Christian broadcasting and trying to pass laws to remove all crosses from public property. It’s lies but many people eat it up and can’t wait to be a martyr for their lord. I suppose it’s easier than thinking things through.

I think being alarmists about the Christian extremists only helps them feel even better about what they are doing and helps them recruit. I think we need to include them as patriots and be willing to discuss their concerns rather than ridicule and dismiss them. Wishful thinking maybe.

[uglybeech]

@cosmodan

I think we need to include them as patriots and be willing to discuss their concerns rather than ridicule and dismiss them.

That’s the big question isn’t it? I read Karen Armstrong’s book on fundamentalism and she seems to think that alienating and ridiculing fundamentalists makes them grow stronger and (though she didn’t put it that way) crazier. I think that was one reason Harvey Cox was being so cautionary. He didn’t want rationalists to start ridiculing or demonizing evangelicals as a group for fear that you’d push the moderates towards the extremes.

On the other hand what bothers me most about some of these groups is that they’re stubbornly anti-intellectual - more than that - they’re discouraging all forms of rational discourse. So I’m not too optimistic about “being willing to discuss their concerns” as a containment strategy.

@cosmodan

Pardon my ignorence. What is SCOTUS?

The Supreme Court (of the United States)

@Zoe

Combine such ignorance, political power, and religious zealotry with media owned mostly by about five conglomerates and then add neocons and boom goes the dynamite.

So count you in the afraid category?

[bizzwire]

@uglybeech

So count you in the afraid category?

[Buckaroo Bonzai] “In other words, Mr. President, I am afraid; in fact, I’m barely holding my fudge…”[/Buckaroo Bonzai]

Apologies to ScumPup

[Waterman]

I for one consider the Christian fundies to be the biggest threat to Democracy that we currently face in this country (nothing new here) but what really irritates me is that these organizations are, IMHO, forgetting the doctrine of separation of church and state.

I BELIEVE THAT ONE APPROACH WOULD BE THAT RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS WHO USE THEIR PULPITS AND INFLUENCE TO SPEAK OUT ON POLITICAL ISSUES SHOULD LOSE THEIR TAX-EXEMPT STATUS!!! The question is who in government who force this issue at this time?

[uglybeech]

@Waterman

I BELIEVE THAT ONE APPROACH WOULD BE THAT RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS WHO USE THEIR PULPITS AND INFLUENCE TO SPEAK OUT ON POLITICAL ISSUES SHOULD LOSE THEIR TAX-EXEMPT STATUS!!! The question is who in government who force this issue at this time? The question is who in government who force this issue at this time?

Uh, yeah well my point is that that things are a little worse than that. It’s not that there’s no one to force the issue of the separation of church and state in the goverment. Chuck the idea because there’s no hope of that.

The big worry is that the near total consolidation of power by the republicans in the next few years means we may live in a theocracy shortly. Depend, I guess, on who wins control of the party.

[AmericanMaid]

This article from Rolling Stone discusses the Dominionists. It’s pretty enlightening and creepy. Between this article and watching “Hotel Rwanda”, I’ve removed my bumper stickers and deflated my Bush punch doll. Count me in the afraid category.

[BrainGlutton]

@Waterman

I for one consider the Christian fundies to be the biggest threat to Democracy that we currently face in this country (nothing new here) but what really irritates me is that these organizations are, IMHO, forgetting the doctrine of separation of church and state.

They’re not forgetting it, they’re attacking it.

[BrainGlutton]

@elucidator

And the economic/neo-con conservatives liquidate the God goons in a bloody purge that comes to be known as the “Night of the Long Fondue Forks”.

Sure it wouldn’t go the other way?

[Guinastasia]

@AmericanMaid

This article from Rolling Stone discusses the Dominionists. It’s pretty enlightening and creepy. Between this article and watching “Hotel Rwanda”, I’ve removed my bumper stickers and deflated my Bush punch doll. Count me in the afraid category.

:eek:

Holy shit, you aren’t kidding:

The Dominionists are also stepping up efforts to turn public schools into forums for evangelism. In a landmark case, the Alliance Defense Fund is suing a California school district that threatened to dismiss a born-again teacher who was evangelizing fifth-graders. In the conference’s opening ceremony, the Dominionists recite an oath they dream of hearing in every classroom: “I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe.”

So instead of love thy neighbor and do unto others as you would have done unto you, it’s kill all the unbelievers?

“God, please – God, please – God, please – save America!”

That’s the only thing they’ve said that I’ll agree with. Although I don’t think I mean the same thing they do when I say it.

[elucidator]

Six of one…

Don’t yet feel really threatened, we won’t know until they over reach themselves. Haven’t yet, haven’t forced anything that much affects the greater mass of people, nor threatens the interests of business.

Ten Commandment statues? Really, who cares. Its a theoretical argument at best, if $10.95 of the county budget spent maintaining the 10 Com statue in the park is a violation of church/state. Referring to God in the Pledge? Once again, symbolism only. Sure, its wrong, but wrong enough to fight over? Much bigger facists to fry.

As for gay marriage, I think that most people accept the media-inspired illusion that gays already have a rough parity with the rest of society. This same illusion is shared by the Godgoons, to their shock, horror and dismay. But in the first instance, it moves to apathy and a bit of a sense of hey! you got it good, don’t press your luck. (Besides, we’re married, and you aint missing much…)

For all the hysteria and hyperbole, they haven’t had that much impact on American society as a whole, the Golden Age of Ozzie and Harriet ain’t coming back. Throwing a conniption fit over Ms. Jacksons gilded titty was a media event: transient, vacuous, and ultimately irrelevent. They cannot afford to look silly, and they cannot help but.

Maybe I’ll start worrying about the time the local university starts accepting c.v.'s for the Chair of the Rapture Studies Department.

Of course, there’s always the chance of a schism, a mass desertion of the Pubbies in favor of a charismatic and dogmatic leader. Now, Universe, I know I haven’t been a very good pantheist…

[SteveG1]

I keep hoping people will wake up and smell the coffee, but it isn’t happening. These people, the Dominions will keep pushing for more and more, and it will never be enough. They have nothing but contempt for anyone who is not one of them. They want to rule. They need to be driven out. There needs to be an immense backlash, the likes of which has never been seen before.

[Lissa]

@SteveG1

I keep hoping people will wake up and smell the coffee, but it isn’t happening[. . . . . ] There needs to be an immense backlash, the likes of which has never been seen before.

There will be. Do not let your hearts be troubled, my friends. This is simply a phase.

Our country has historically gone through waves of conservatism and religious fervor and then liberalism and secularization. Politicians, being what they are, parrot the current fads, but rarely do much to actually change things in the direction the poplace desires.

The American people are blessedly fickle. They get bored and distracted before their moral panics can do lasting harm. In a relatively short time, they will become blase about flag-waving and self-righteousness. Tolerance will be “cool” again, and what litte changes were made will be swept away. The loonies will be nudged back to the fringe where they belong, and they will sputter and shriek as always, but will be rightfully ignored.

Judging from historical patterns, I’m guessing that things will be back to normal by about 2010.

Breathe more easily, my friends. There is little real damage that they can do. The system of checks and balances will keep it to a minimum, and despite their podium-thumping, they’re not going to be able to make massive governmental changes unless there’s a disaster of epic proportion, ala Handmaid’s Tale.

I don’t fear the Christian Fascists. I pity them. How miserable their lives must be that they are so filled with dissatisfaction and hatred! How grim and joyless their homes! Their hearts must ache constantly with bitterness and frustration which their religion does not comfort but instead aggravates.

Do not fear them. To fear them is to grant them power, which they desire above all. Instead, pity them for their frantic efforts which will avail them nothing in the end. Pity them for the scorn which will return upon them in heaps. Pity them for their feeling of attaining power only to have it snatched away by the fickle people. Pity them for their mistaken belief that the politicians they elected actually meant to do anything about those moral issues. And, finally, pity them because they’ll never know a moment of peace or happiness because they will not allow themselves to have any.

[AHunter3]

I, for one, am terrified of them.

It’s been a very long five months since the election.

[BrainGlutton]

@Lissa

Judging from historical patterns, I’m guessing that things will be back to normal by about 2010.

I envy your optimism, but I have my doubts as to whether things will ever be “back to normal” within your lifetime or mine. There is no historical precedent for the times we are living in. We are on the verge of a “long emergency” caused mainly by the imminent peak of global petroleum production which will disrupt every industrial economy in the world – like the recessions caused by the oil-price spikes of 1974, 1979 and 1991, only worse, because this time the rise in petroleum prices won’t be temporary (see this thread – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=314139). More wars over oil supplies are not unlikely. Unsettled times provide ordinarily unimaginable opportunities for extremists and demagogues of all sorts.

[cosmosdan]

@AmericanMaid

This article from Rolling Stone discusses the Dominionists. It’s pretty enlightening and creepy. Between this article and watching “Hotel Rwanda”, I’ve removed my bumper stickers and deflated my Bush punch doll. Count me in the afraid category.

Thats some article. If those quotes are acurate then we should be concerned. I reiterate. Let’s not help them recruit by attacking them. They are one more group of concerned citizens. Our tools are these…the truth. Christians may believe the lies told by their leaders but when lies are made public then leaders lose credibility. There are lots of lies being told about the founding of this country to support their claims. Lets expose those not in an attack on them but in the service of honesty.

The words of Christ. Fortunately there are Christian groups who oppose them.

There needs to be a new discussion of the seperation of church and state. I agree that those who want “In God we trust” taken off money or “under God” taken out of the pledge are also extremists.

[elucidator]

And what rough Beast slouches towards Dallas to be born…