Who's Gay bashing?

[New_Iskander]

Trying to explain Bush re-election many Democrats are now saying that it was due to ‘Hate’ vote; the argument goes that pro-Bush voters were energized by “amendments to their constitutions that would define marriage as between only a man and a woman”, therefore Bush was re-elected on the wave of a “vote against same-sex marriage”.

I agree that there was a strong effort to exploit popular support for ‘Gay Marriage bans’ by a certain presidential candidate before the election. That candidate was John Kerry.

Let’s consider the evidence. Third Bush-Kerry debate.

SCHIEFFER: Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?

BUSH: You know, Bob, I don’t know. I just don’t know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It’s important that we do that.

And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live.

And that’s to be honored.

But as we respect someone’s rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn’t change – or have to change – our basic views on the sanctity of marriage.

(goes on to explain his opposition to gay marriage)

SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry?

KERRY: We’re all God’s children, Bob. **And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney’s daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she’s being who she was, she’s being who she was born as. **

I think if you talk to anybody, it’s not choice. I’ve met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it.

(waffle, waffle…)

The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

(waffle, waffle…)

Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they’re proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately.

There it was, gay-baiting right off the bat, culminating with explicit approval of state’s actions.

Need more evidence? Cheney-Edwards debate.

IFILL: The next question goes to you, Mr. Vice President.

I want to read something you said four years ago at this very setting: “Freedom means freedom for everybody.” You said it again recently when you were asked about legalizing same-sex unions. And you used your family’s experience as a context for your remarks.

Can you describe then your administration’s support for a constitutional ban on same-sex unions?

CHENEY: Gwen, you’re right, four years ago in this debate, the subject came up. And I said then and I believe today that freedom does mean freedom for everybody. People ought to be free to choose any arrangement they want. It’s really no one else’s business.

That’s a separate question from the issue of whether or not government should sanction or approve or give some sort of authorization, if you will, to these relationships.

Traditionally, that’s been an issue for the states. States have regulated marriage, if you will. That would be my preference.

(goes on to explain Bush position against same-sex marriage)

IFILL: Senator Edwards, 90 seconds.

EDWARDS:

(goes on about taxes)

Now, as to this question, **let me say first that I think the vice president and his wife love their daughter. I think they love her very much. And you can’t have anything but respect for the fact that they’re willing to talk about the fact that they have a gay daughter, the fact that they embrace her. ** It’s a wonderful thing. And there are millions of parents like that who love their children, who want their children to be happy.

And I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, and so does John Kerry.

I also believe that there should be partnership benefits for gay and lesbian couples in long-term, committed relationships.

But we should not use the Constitution to divide this country.

No state for the last 200 years has ever had to recognize another state’s marriage.

This is using the Constitution as a political tool, and it’s wrong.

There it was again. Gay-baiting right off the bat, culminating with full support of state’s actions.

So, Bush, Kerry, Cheney and Edwards all fully supported state’s actions, which resulted in bans on same-sex marriage in 11 states. In addition, Kerry and Edwards were unscupulously gay-baiting, trying to exploit anti-gay feelings for political advantage. How can anybody accuse only the Republicans of ‘Hate’?

I also have a bonus question for gay people and their supporters. Ohio passed the most anti-gay amendment, banning even civil unions. Ohio was also a key state to win the White House. If John&John tactics were succeessful and help them to carry Ohio, thus winning the White House, would you say then that they benefited from the ‘Hate’ vote? Or would you keep quiet?

[Genghis_Bob]

How is recognizing an openly Gay and out person gay-baiting, again?

[furlibusea]

You know New Iskander, at the moment I am trying to reconcile myself to the fact that some large portion of my fellow citizens have more in common with Jack Chick than with me, and that somehow they call it morality. I really don’t give a f… darn who’s fault it is. If you want to believe the fault belongs to the democrats you go right ahead. I think i am just gonna sit here and eat my chocolate and try to figure out how I can stay.

[Jervoise]

(1) Bush pretending he doesn’t know whether being gay is a choice–as if people would choose a life of discrimination and hatred–does not amount to a statement of tolerance.

(2) You severely mischaracterise Edwards’s remarks as “gay-baiting”. In fact Cheney and his wife sincerely thanked the Senator for his comments on their love for their daughter. It was a classy exchange.

(3) Rather than resorting to platitudes uttered at debates, how about we examine the parties’ offical platforms for their true feelings on gay issues. Here’s a lovely slice of tolerance from the Texas GOP (posted earlier today):

“The Party believes that the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country’s founders, and shared by the majority of Texans.”

Now I wonder why gay Dopers feel the right-wing hates them.

I might add to some conservative Dopers: yes, certain liberal Dopers have been shrill, irrational and unreasonable today. For a moment, however, consider what this election has meant for them. Most of the issues we discuss are theoretical playthings for you, but these are people–particularly gay Dopers–whose lives are changed, and not for the better. Try to put yourselves in their places for a moment and have some compassion for their losses.

[Gyrate]

@Jervoise

[From the Texas GOP]
“The Party believes that the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases.”

Pardon my inappropriate fit of un-PC giggling but

the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society

Are the Texans saying they think society is made up of assholes?

contributes to the breakdown of the family unit

And that, gentlemen, is why you should always wear a condom.

Sorry – I just desperately needed a laugh today.

Bad Gyrate! No biscuit!

[New_Iskander]

@furlibusea

You know New Iskander, at the moment I am trying to reconcile myself to the fact that some large portion of my fellow citizens have more in common with Jack Chick than with me, and that somehow they call it morality. I really don’t give a f… darn who’s fault it is. If you want to believe the fault belongs to the democrats you go right ahead. I think i am just gonna sit here and eat my chocolate and try to figure out how I can stay.

I understand you have a long struggle on your hands. All I’m saying, do not expect help from the likes of Kerry and Edwards, they are out to sell you. Don’t blame Bush for everything. Believe me, there are only few countries in the world where the President would publicly state, “I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live”.

On a lighter note, as a monogamous male being married 20 years, believe me, marriage is not all it’s cracked up to be. (Slap!) See what I mean?

[spectrum]

New Iskander, given the utter ignorance you’ve shown regarding gay issues in the past, please don’t bother trying to assert any understanding of the issue in the future.

[Gyrate]

@New Iskander

On a lighter note, as a monogamous male being married 20 years, believe me, marriage is not all it’s cracked up to be. (Slap!) See what I mean?

I, OTOH, have been married for 14 years and couldn’t be happier about it. And it saddens me that some loving couples can’t have the same sort of relationship, simply because some other people think it’s “icky”.

My own marriage cannot be diminished by other people wanting the same thing as me; it can only be strengthened by it. It’s the Vegas weddings and the serial divorcees, the spouse abusers and the adulterers – that’s what cheapens the institution of marriage, not the homosexuals.

[Yeticus_Rex]

Whether there was “gay baiting” or not by Kerry and Edwards was immaterial to me, what mattered was that all 4 had the same position on SSM (leave it as a state issue), which became a non-issue when it came to vote. That might also explain the 22% of gay voters who also saw the same thing that I did and also decided to vote for Bush based on other issues.

My actions of treating all of my employees, clients, friends, acquaintances the same (gay and straight) will tell you where I stand on the issue rather than of who I voted for. Go ahead blowero, call me stupid , but I still run a business who treats everyone with respect and still haven’t bailed on any of them.

[New_Iskander]

@spectrum

New Iskander, given the utter ignorance you’ve shown regarding gay issues in the past, please don’t bother trying to assert any understanding of the issue in the future.

In that case you should refrain expressing any opinion about marriage. What do you know about marriage, anyway? Why don’t you try it first? Yes, with a woman, if needs must. I have… (Slappp!)

[spectrum]

You assume I’ve never been married.

[blowero]

@Yeticus Rex

Go ahead blowero, call me stupid , but I still run a business who treats everyone with respect and still haven’t bailed on any of them.

I didn’t call you stupid for running a business, I called you stupid for voting for Bush.

[Rashak_Mani]

@Gyrate

the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society

Are the Texans saying they think society is made up of assholes?

Well 51% of american society for sure…

[Yeticus_Rex]

@blowero

I didn’t call you stupid for running a business, I called you stupid for voting for Bush.

Heh. Whatever, boss. I’m sure Kerry would have been a hUGH help to my business and my employees if he were prez… :rolleyes:

Sounds like I need to buy you and rjung a beer.

[Yeticus_Rex]

A HUGE…HUGE…HUGE help… :smack:

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@New Iskander

On a lighter note, as a monogamous male being married 20 years, believe me, marriage is not all it’s cracked up to be.

Depends on the people involved.
Daniel