Who's privileged? Who's unprivileged?

Great Debates
101

So, as mentioned, historically, short people have a pretty strong disadvantage. They make considerably less money, are essentially locked out of positions of high power in politics (hell, Paul is taking shit, and Bloomberg had similar problems, for their height when running for president and had the gall to be only 5’8" tall!) They are a smidgen below average height, hardly short, and yet this seems to be disqualifying.

Shorter than average people are apparently unfit to run companies, as CEOs average around 6 foot. The lack of female CEOs might simply be an extension of them not being tall enough, apparently.

So, why is height an “advantage” and not a “privilege”? Seems to me that by this logic:

anybody who disagrees with this is suffering from tall privilege.

102

I don’t regularly talk about “privilege”, Fiveyearlurker. But I think I understand the concept well enough to help.

I think it’s crazy for anyone to say that tall people don’t have privilege over short people. But without a context, this is like saying men have privilege over women. I mean, it’s true as a blanket generality. But it’s so general as to be pointless. The concept is only really helpful when you’re dealing with a specific context.

For instance, let’s say there’s a new medical treatment on the market that allows grown adults to add three to five inches to their height. It’s expensive, but it’s very effective.

You have a friend who is 6’2’’ tall. When you tell him you’re thinking about taking the drug, he laughs at you and tells you you’re being foolish. He says to you:

“Why are you going to spend thousands of dollars just so you can be a little taller? Are you Vanity Smurf now? Bro, being short isn’t that bad. I don’t believe your life will be any different as a tall guy. You’re only being held back by your own insecurities. You need to get over yourself and learn how to be happy with your appearance, like I am with mine.”

And you will say: “Dude, check your privilege.”

Your friend’s privilege prevents him from seeing the world from your vantage point.

People have a tendency to deny their own privilege. In this hypothetical example, your hypothetical friend refuses to validate your feelings, because doing so might require him to recognize his privilege as a tall person.

Saying tall people are privileged over short people doesn’t point us to a solution. It’s just a sad statement of fact. But telling a tall individual who is berating a short person’s feelings to “check his privilege” is telling him that he needs to shut his pie-hole and learn some things before he spouts off. He doesn’t know how it feels to be short, so his wisdom regarding short people and their woes needs to at least come with a humble disclaimer.

I think the one thing that unifies the experience of members of stigmitized minority groups is having to be lectured to and scolded by people who are not in those groups. It’s not just that they are discriminated against or face special challenges. They are also told how they should feel about it. Privilege means never having to hear “suck it up”.

103

I think this might be the first time that a person has changed another person’s mind on the internet, so thanks.

I still don’t like “check your privilege” (seems like a method for ending discussion, rather than having an honest discussion), but I get the concept

104

You’re welcome.

I don’t like the phrase either, and I’ve never said it before. But dammit if I don’t want to scream it from the rooftops sometimes.

105

That’s great. Because as a reasonably tall person, as I said before, I can see my tall privilege.
I’d say, in monstro’s excellent scenario, that I would understand why someone would want to be taller. Or smarter. And I’d take a pill to be better looking, in the old days at least. (Now it would just cause problems.)
Now what to do about it besides magic pills is another problem. Sensitizing us tall people to our privilege won’t solve the problem - but it will help and it is easy and inexpensive, and does not involve government programs.
We all have built-in biases. We know how to measure these now. We might not be able to get rid of them, but if we work at pretending they don’t exist, maybe in a few generations they won’t.

106

No, I said the specific use in this context is incorrect, and that itsuse is propaganda . Whether you believe that or not is an entirely different issue.

We humans like to feel morally superior to another group who are not like us. Putting them down by using insulting words like privilege is part of that.

Oh and the suggestion that we don’t see or accept that we have ‘privilege’ is absurd. We don’t all have every specific advantage. That doesn’t mean we should think those that do have an advantage over us are privileged.

I’m arguably unattractive. I’m a geeky nerd that has been picked on all his life. Should I complain about pretty privilege? After all attractive people have advantages I don’t.
In any case, I’m in the middle of a trip to London, so likely won’t be back here for a week. Cheerio!

107

Complaining about it is up to you, but there’s nothing wrong with accepting that conventionally attractive people may have some privilege that conventionally unattractive people do not.

108

Who doesn’t get lectured to and scolded by people who aren’t in their group?

109

BrianJ’s misconception that recognizing privilege is akin to “complaining” is VERY common. I wish it weren’t so.

The usefulness of the concept isn’t in identifying who can complain and who can’t. Rather, it allows folks to appreciate why people–including themselves–feel/believe the way they do.

Why does Matt Damon hold the opinion he does, while his black female colleague feels differently? Is it simply because they have different experiences? Or is it that and the fact that for him to see her point, Matt would have to fight a common tendency to deny his privileged position relative to hers.

Let’s say I start a poll and ask Dopers who has to work harder to get a decent amount of respect in a typical workplace: a person who is not a visible member of a stigmatized minority group or someone who is. And then we’ll have respondents indicate whether they belong to a stigmatized minority group, and if so, what those group(s) are. I’m guessing the respondents who are white American males will be less likely to endorse the statement that minorities have to work harder, while respondents who are minorities will be more likely to believe otherwise. Why would this be? Do minorities, no matter what the persuasion, all carry the same chip on their shoulder? Are they all delusional? Or is it something about being in an unprivileged position that encourages this belief, and something about being in the privileged position that discourages this belief?

110

I dunno. When was the last time a black person told you to “suck it up” and stop carrying that chip on your shoulder?

111

Are you lecturing me or scolding me?

At that, what is it when a black person tells a white person to, well, Check His Privilege? What is it when a black person tells a white person not to use That Word? Or calls a white person a racist, or tells a white person he couldn’t possibly understand? I figure any of those can be delivered in ‘lecture’ form, or with a ‘scolding’ tone.

But, to answer your question directly – yeah, I’m pretty sure I’ve had ‘suck it up’ thrown my way by a black person before. Over affirmative action, if I recall correctly.

112

I think everyone’s quite willing to agree that in the general case, people who don’t have to deal with a problem, don’t interact much with people who do, and don’t have a trusted source blessing the problem and telling them to take it seriously, tend to discount the problem.

In the example you give, however? I bet we can point to both unequal outcomes (in that the upper management of most companies will look a certain way) and in treatments (in that there will be open and blatant racial and sex discrimination, in favor of minorities, in the form of affirmative action policies, and a reluctance to fire poor performers who might then claim discrimination and result in an expensive lawsuit.)

So, who’s right, in that case? I consider with a bit of irony you’re asking us to consider that, of two groups, one is definitely being irrational or missing something, and that group is the smaller group. If white males are telling women and minorities that they benefit unfairly from discrimination in their favor, perhaps they should check their privilege and listen to us, since their privilege is apparently invisible to them.

Or we could, you know, do the reality-based community thing and settle questions about discrimination by actually looking at discrimination. Either’s good.

113

Dude, I’m just asking you a question.

I don’t think that’s akin to saying “suck it up and quit your whining”. I think that’s no different than saying, “Your opinion on this particular subject is not appreciated because it’s obvious you’re not speaking from first-hand experience.”

I don’t know what it is. But I know it isn’t telling someone how they should feel or that they have a chip on their shoulder.

None of those things are akin to telling a person “quit your whining, you big delusional silly titty-baby!”

Do you think black people hear “suck it up” more or less often than white people do?

114

Please note that I didn’t identify the “right” or “wrong” position. Yes, in some cases the stigmatized minority will be given special favor and in some cases he or she will be evaluated more harshly. My point is that one’s privilege influences which of these one is is more likely to emphasize or downplay. So you’re accusing me of arguing a point that I intentionally didn’t make.

If an individual always finds himself rolling his eyes when the discussion turns to discrimination and unfairness, then perhaps he should “check his privilege”. That is to say, he should ask himself whether his response is based on an objective appraisal of the facts, or whether it’s a reflex arising from the ingrained tendency to deny one’s privilege.

And I’d say that if an individual finds herself always perceiving discrimination and unfairness, she would also benefit from the same self-assessment.

But it is my experience that the “unprivileged” are more likely to question their responses because they always hear how minorities are hypersensitive, paranoid, whiners. I can’t read the comments section of a typical online article without being scolded in this way. Even the things we’re told as kids, like “Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt” and “Life is unfair!” serve to keep people from pointing out very real and hurtful microaggressions…at least to the folks most likely to inflict them.

Again, my point flew over your head. The perception of one’s reality depends on their experiences in this life. There is no “reality-based community”. Everyone sees the reality they are inclined to see. Both the privilege and the unprivileged. But the privileged, by virtue of their privilege, are the ones that have the power to dictate how everyone should respond to reality.

115

I’m starting to think that maybe the word “privilege” has been sort of co-opted to have nuances or meanings that it didn’t originally mean, and that’s a big piece of the problem.

Typically it meant access to out-of-the-ordinary or special resources, or treatment that was special or out of the ordinary. In general, the word was used almost exclusively in two contexts- that of earned privileges, which was special treatment or resource access in exchange for good behavior, extraordinary performance, etc… or it was in the context of the rich and powerful receiving treatment and access tp which nobody outside of the rich and powerful had access.

The first kind was generally accepted, as it was a consequence of your actions, and the second was typically looked at as undeserved. Not so much sour grapes, but a certain recognition that the rich kids were likely to go on to college, get out, and make similar incomes to their parents because of rich person networking, not because they were that awesomely smart or hard working, and that the rest of us weren’t in that network.

That’s why when some 5’0’ man goes to a regular man, say… 5’9" and tells him he’s got “tall privilege”, it’s seen as absurd and a little offensive. It’s relative- yes, the 9" taller guy doesn’t see things from the perspective of the almost-little-person, but it’s also ridiculous to claim he’s privileged. Maybe if it was the 5’0" guy talking to a 6’6" guy, then the argument would make sense.

And that’s what several of us are getting at- a lot of the “privilege” is basically the 5’0" guy talking to a 5’6" guy, or 5’9" guy and telling them to check their privilege or whatever, and the 5’6" guy is thinking “WTF? I’m short too.” and the 5’9" guy is thinking he’s average.

116

bump, I totally get how going up to someone–anyone–and telling them they’ve got “privilege” would provoke defensiveness and hostility.

But this isn’t typically how privileged is discussed.

Let’s use the example you’ve given. The 5’9" guy who considers himself a short guy. Let’s say you are 5’0".

The two of you are co-leaders of a local advocacy group for vertically-challenged people. There’s some concern in this community about a bar that sponsors a “midget” throwing contest every Friday night. The group’s membership wants to organize a protest. But your co-leader isn’t interested. He’s more interested in matters that he views as more important–like job discrimination. Moreover, he says he personally thinks the contest is hilarious and that folks should just lighten up.

What is wrong with telling him that he might feel differently about the entire matter if it weren’t for the privilege he enjoys? Yes, doing so will likely make him defensive. But so what, if he realizes that his emotional blindspot is getting in the way of his being supportive?

117

Nor did I say they were; you originally talked about lecturing or scolding, and I noted that any of those could involve lecturing or scolding – and you then moved on to asking about “suck it up” in particular, and I replied to that too, which prompted this:

How is that relevant to what you first claimed? You said “the one thing that unifies the experience of members of stigmitized minority groups is having to be lectured to and scolded by people who are not in those groups.” I reply that it unifies the experience of the rest of us too, sure as we also get lectured to and scolded by people who are not in our groups.

And your response is – to ask whether black people hear “suck it up” more or less often than white people do? Look, let’s first just stop and note that, regardless of who hears it more often, they both hear it, because they of course both get scolded and lectured in general by members of other groups – and, yes, they both get told to “suck it up” in particular – which, again was my whole point.

But once we’ve made that abundantly clear – sure, we can then move on to your new and different goalpost of whether black people or white people hear it more often. Truth is, I have no idea who hears it more often; I know I’ve been told to do it, and it sounds like you’ve been told to do it, and this being the SDMB we both know the plural of anecdote isn’t data; maybe I hear it more often that you do. Maybe white people hear it more often than black people do. How would I know?

All I do know is, neither your group nor mine has a monopoly on being scolded and lectured in general, or on getting a “suck it up” in particular – and while I’ll gladly admit that “delusional silly titty-baby” is a new one on me, I’d sure like you to acknowledge in turn that – well, one thing that unifies the experience of members of your group and mine is having to be lectured to and scolded by people who are not in our respective groups: it happens to me, and it happens to you, and it even happens to both of us with the exact same “suck it up” turn of phrase.

118

That’s a useful distinction. The first definition is the one used in “Rank Hath its Privileges.” There are some problems with that kind, but it is not what is being discussed here.

Here a real example of the bad effects of the second type. Lots of politicians who come from wealthy families and were born on third base oppose various social justice initiatives on the grounds that anyone can get rich just like they did, so the poverty of a person is their own fault. Some do get that they were lucky. Others may not have been born rich, but they might have been born smart. I got into Harvard, why can’t you? That’s the everyone can get good pay if they had just become engineers crowd.

I’d be happy to keep anyone without a privilege from complaining if everyone with privileges would get that while they might make them special, it doesn’t make them better.

119

And yet your hypotheticals all seem to generalize the same way. It’s certainly welcome to hear that you think that not all perceived instances of discrimination are discrimination, but there’s not much use in accepting exceptions when you privilege the hypothesis.

And in my experience, what has happened in America over the past few decades is that discrimination which people are eager to call discrimination has been driven underground and made unprovable, because of the very many high-profile cases of it getting stepped on hard, while discrimination in favor of what you interestingly term stigmatized groups has grown and is now generally accepted. If a student said that they were denied admittance to the college of their choice because of their racial make-up, would you dismiss them as a whiner today? Would you have done so 20 or 50 years in the past?

And if you are strongly against race-based discrimination in hiring and college admissions, great! Unfortunately, the law isn’t. And yet, discrimination against one set of people gets categorized as microagressions and given serious treatment by establishments like colleges and corporations, while discrimination against other people…doesn’t.

And again, the idea that minorities could the be privileged ones doesn’t even get examined. And this isn’t to say that there isn’t a huge amount of traditional racism and sexism to be addressed, with large real-world impacts. But the concept of privilege itself, when applied to its own context, ends up looking rather self-defeating.

Then I hereby declare with the power of my privilege that there is a reality-based community, based on actual reality, and that you are hereby involuntarily inducted into it, and that your reality shall hereby be determined by physical laws and not your perception of them. (If this involves you stumbling over rocks you had previously ignored and thereby made to not exist, you have my apologies.)

120

But that’s how it’s used constantly! Have you never been on Twitter?