Who's privileged? Who's unprivileged?

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

The only people who get “undeservedness” from use of the term privilege is people who think the idea is stupid. The idea of recognizing privileges is not to take away anything from people who enjoy them; it’s to lift those who don’t up to the same level. In other words, nobody wants store security to follow middle-aged white females around; they just want them to stop doing it to young black males.

[monstro]

@Ludovic

Grades and praise are not zero sum games. You can give both brothers equal respect.

Is it a travesty to halve the first brother’s daily allowance so that his brother can have some money?

If first brother would normally get fifty bucks for every A on his report card while second brother would just get a pat on the head, would it be a travesty to give both brothers pats on the head? Why should either brother feel entitled to money, let alone that much money? Why should the first brother’s situation be considered “the norm”?

If the police are racially profiling and disproportionately targeting black people for crimes that white people commit at the same rate, then eliminating this practice for the sake of fairness will result in tons more white people getting thrown in jail, all other things kept the same. In other words, the privileged brother will be getting spanked for crappy grades and foregoing desserts and suffering from humilations that he previously never experienced.

If white people are getting jobs due to “old boys networks” at a higher rate than black people and this practice is eliminated, then more white people will be standing in the unemployment line while more black people will be called in for interviews.

If black people are getting turned down for bank loans at a higher rate than white people with the same credit scores and incomes, then eliminating this practice will result in more black people acquiring bank loans and fewer white people getting them.

And so on and so forth.

Love and respect may not be a zero-sum game. But everything else in the world certainly is.

[monstro]

@iiandyiiii

Anecdotal story relating to privilege:

Friend of mine (call her S) is a black female psychologist. Upon graduating with her Psy D, S applied for jobs with various therapy groups. One in particular (a family therapy group) liked her a lot – they had 60 candidates, but they told S that she was by far their favorite. But there was a problem – they were seriously worried about how they would get patients to sign up with her – that many patients would not want a black therapist. They were open with her about this worry.

Side-discussion 1: S is a very intelligent and qualified therapist. Her would-be employers showed no sign of racial bias – and yet they were worried about their business, and that hiring a black therapist might not be the best move for their business. White applicants had the privilege of there being no concern about their race potentially harming the business of the prospective employer.

They ended up hiring her despite these concerns because they were so impressed by her interview (and academic history). They put up her picture on their therapy group website. She is an attractive woman who wore her hair naturally. For the first few months, she had zero patients. Her employers were extremely concerned. Someone had the idea of a new picture – she dressed very conservatively, had her hair styled in a more European (i.e. straightened) fashion, wore glasses (despite no need for glasses), and had the picture taken. Since then, she slowly built up a base of patients and now has as many as her co-therapists (including, paradoxically, an openly racist drug addict who swears that she is the only therapist who can keep him clean).

Side discussion 2: S is a skilled therapist and an attractive woman, but her picture (even when professionally taken) dissuaded potential patients from choosing her as their therapist. Her white co-therapists have the privilege of being able to present themselves on their website naturally (with their natural hair style) without dissuading patients and harming their business.

There is a happy ending – S is very content with her therapy group and has plenty of patients. She’s not a victim and never has been. This is just (in my view, at least) a realistic description of the challenges she faced due to various forms of privilege, or lack therof.

Conclusions: Privilege is generally about society, and not so much about individual prejudice. S’s therapy group shows no evidence of racial prejudice, but because their business is in a society in which there can be racial aspects to things as varying as patients choosing a therapist, they were concerned about hiring a black woman. S didn’t have to just be a good therapist – she had to be the best out of a group of 60, and even then there was a good chance she would not have been hired. She doesn’t just have to dress well and be attractive, she has to chemically alter her hair, wear glasses she doesn’t need, and dress more conservatively then her co-therapists, to get enough patients to be viable.

Interesting story, iiandyiiii. Thanks so much for sharing it.

I suspect a lot of people would read this story and find reasons why it’s not a big deal.

“Big deal, she has to get her hair straightened. I can’t wear my hair in a mullet.”

“Big deal, she has to wear conservative clothes. I can’t wear my Hawaiian shirts and blue jeans to work either!”

“Big deal, she has to wear glasses. Plenty of people wear glasses for cosmetic purposes. It’s not a big deal!”

“And how does she know she has to work harder than everyone else to get the same respect? That’s just her being paranoid and hypersensitive.”

“And besides…even if we accept that she’s discriminated against because she’s black, certainly there are patients who select her BECAUSE she’s black. It probably all balances out. She should quit whining.”

It has been my experience that a person who believes any of these things, nine times out of ten, does not belong to a stigmitized minority group.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

The test for whether you are privileged is whether you don’t believe in privilege.

[Miller]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

The test for whether you are privileged is whether you don’t believe in privilege.

The test for whether you’re privileged is, if you hear the concept described to you, your first instinct is to debate the accuracy of the word “privilege.”

[BrainGlutton]

This article on “Intersectionality” should be required reading for this thread.

[elfkin477]

@robertliguori

Good to know that African-Americans and the poor are not significantly disprivelaged, then. On account of all the violence.

Or perhaps you’d like to walk back the claim that privileged people do violence a little?

Do you think black women are more or less privileged than black men? Are poor women more or less privileged than poor men?

[robertliguori]

@elfkin477

Do you think black women are more or less privileged than black men? Are poor women more or less privileged than poor men?

I will refer you to a statement by this well-educated and very handsome poster to summarize my feelings on the topic.

Still no word on how black people and poor people are obviously privileged on account of those violence statistics? A simple yea or nay will do.

[Fiveyearlurker]

As a male who stands just above 5’5", is there any support for the contention that there is tall privilege?

• less than 3% of CEOs are below 5 ft 7 in. Ninety percent of CEOs are of above average height.
• on an average an increase in height by one inch at age 16 increased male adult wages by 2.6 percent. This ends up being a significant amount of money per year.
• there hasn’t been a president of the US under 5’9" since William Mckinley.

[SciFiSam]

@elucidator

Sez who? Obama is privileged to live in a white house, because he won some sort of election. A person has the privilege of adding “Ph.D.” to their name when they acquire a boney fido accreditation (even if they can no longer remember why they wanted to).

An advantage by birth is surely unearned, but that doesn’t mean all the rest of the world’s privileges are the same, or even most of them.

@bump

See, I wouldn’t call that “privilege”. I’d call that how things should work. Just because it sucks for that poor black man, that doesn’t somehow make me privileged because things aren’t sucking out of the norm for me.

And that’s my point- reasonable and normal behavior and treatment isn’t “privilege”, it’s the norm. Privilege is something above and beyond that. Getting into college with sub-standard scores and grades because your dad’s rich is privilege. Getting out of tickets because you’re a hot chick is privilege. Not getting harassed by the cops because you’re white isn’t privilege.

Try to think about it not as getting something being a privilege, but also not getting something that’s bad for you also being a privilege. So if you are less likely to get stopped while driving and searched, etc, that is a privilege for you (and me).

Privilege does not always mean getting something that’s good for; sometimes it means not getting something that’s bad for you.

And obviously it depends on circumstances. Only a disingenuous arsehole would pretend otherwise. Just for one example, if you’re a woman working on building sites you will come across a huge amount of discrimination against you. But if you’re a man working in a nursery you will too. Everyone I know who’s interested in working against discrimination would agree.

I have enjoyed playing privilege bingo with friends as a laugh but I know that it’s not always how it works out in real life. In some situations your gender will count for or against you, and same for sexuality, disability, etc.

Although there are a very small number of situations where being a straight white middle class able-bodied male with no disabilities would be discriminated against, and there are a lot of people like that. I mean we’re basically talking being head of the ACLU or getting the disabled seat on the bus.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Fiveyearlurker

As a male who stands just above 5’5", is there any support for the contention that there is tall privilege?

• less than 3% of CEOs are below 5 ft 7 in. Ninety percent of CEOs are of above average height.
• on an average an increase in height by one inch at age 16 increased male adult wages by 2.6 percent. This ends up being a significant amount of money per year.
• there hasn’t been a president of the US under 5’9" since William Mckinley.

As a six footer* who doesn’t much care whether other people (other than potential sex partners) are short or tall, I have no personal insight on this issue, but the numbers seem to back up “tall privilege.” It’s not an absolute, of course; tall girls in high school are generally the subject of ridicule. Anyway, some of my best friends are short people.

*5’11" and three quarters, but I’m going to round up until I hit 45 or so and start shrinking.

ETA: for what it’s worth, four of eight members of the ACLU’s executive committee are white males. I assume at least one is Jewish.

[SciFiSam]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

As a six footer* who doesn’t much care whether other people (other than potential sex partners) are short or tall, I have no personal insight on this issue, but the numbers seem to back up “tall privilege.” It’s not an absolute, of course; tall girls in high school are generally the subject of ridicule. Anyway, some of my best friends are short people.

*5’11" and three quarters, but I’m going to round up until I hit 45 or so and start shrinking.

ETA: for what it’s worth, four of eight members of the ACLU’s executive committee are white males. I assume at least one is Jewish.

When it comes to height, privilege means that really tall people pay more. Really small people do too if they don’t have the proportions of children. With clothing being average height or a bit over or under is a privilege. That’s context-based privilege.

It doesn’t mean buying tall guy trousers is the same as using a wheelchair and not being able to get into places or only being fertile till you’re forty or being searched ten times as many times as lighter-skinned folks.

[amarinth]

@elfkin477

Do you think black women are more or less privileged than black men? Are poor women more or less privileged than poor men?

In what context? In which situation? What’s the discussion you’re having? Plucked out of the air from nowhere, that question is very nearly meaningless.

Privilege is contextual and situational (and intersectional - but that’s a different discussion). If you’re talking about a specific situation or public policy, it may be that the effects on or experiences of poor women are very different than the effects on or experiences of poor men.
So - start by telling me what we’re talking about. Then, as we have the discussion about whatever it is, we may have to stop and ask ourselves whether gender matters when it comes to this topic. From there, we may get to “when it comes to ______, one gender has is in a much worse position than the other.” And recognizing that may have an influence on how we think about the issue.

[Voyager]

@SciFiSam

When it comes to height, privilege means that really tall people pay more. Really small people do too if they don’t have the proportions of children. With clothing being average height or a bit over or under is a privilege. That’s context-based privilege.

It doesn’t mean buying tall guy trousers is the same as using a wheelchair and not being able to get into places or only being fertile till you’re forty or being searched ten times as many times as lighter-skinned folks.

Any extreme is going to cause problems. I’m 6’2", and have never had to pay more for clothes. In fact it has always been totally positive until airlines started to shrink seats.
I can see tall privilege. Back in the day I never once worried about whether a woman would go out for me because I was too short. I never thought about size at all, which I guess is an indicator of privilege.

[BrianJ]

@ITR_champion

A while back I started a thread with a link to this article to start a debate about the validity of microaggressions. There’s another aspect that seems worthy of debate. The student in that article defines microaggressions as “statements by a person from a privileged group that belittles or isolates a member of an unprivileged group”. That assumes, of course, that there’s a clear definition of who’s privileged and who’s unprivileged, as do numerous similar statements from similar sources. Yet what exactly is the definition?

Privilege is “a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most”. Of course many possible rights exist, so a person could very well have privileges in some areas but lack privileges in others. So describing one person or group as “privileged” is largely meaningless without defining what privilege you’re referring to.

One common tactic is to assert that majorities are privileged and minorities unprivileged. This leads to some bizarre conclusions. 30 years ago, whites in South Africa were a minority and Blacks a majority, yet it’s hard to accept that Blacks were privileged and Whites unprivileged by any measure. The top one percent of income earners, often just called “the one percent”, are a minority by definition, yet few would call them unprivileged. The words “majority” and “minority” are also ambiguous. Whites may be a majority in the entire United States, but they are a minority in some states and cities. They are also a minority worldwide. So whether they constitute a minority or majority depends on the frame that we’re measuring within.

More often, debate simply proceeds as if no explanation of who’s privileged is necessary. White males are often assumed to be privileged. But are they? I work once a week at a soup kitchen run by the Salvation Army. Roughly 80% of the individuals who come in to receive food are white men. Many are homeless, in terrible physical and mental health, and have inadequate clothing. I find it difficult to locate any privilege of any sort that these individuals enjoy which most people lack.

On the other end of the spectrum, to story that I linked to at the start of this post comes from a private college where the annual tuition is $40,000. Many complaints about privilege and the lack thereof come from similar institutions with equal or higher price tags. It seems to be self-evident that anyone who attends such a school is privileged, regardless of skin color, gender, sexual orientation, or anything else. Being admitted to such a school is itself a privilege which most of the human race can’t have. Those who are privileged enough to attend such a school in turn earn economic, political, and social privileges that most people will never get.

I’ve been thinking about this recently. Privilege, as used in this context, doesn’t actually exist.

What people are calling ‘privileges’ are actually advantages.

So what’s the difference?

Well, first off, we are, every single one of us, ‘sheeple’ We subconsciously like being told what to do and think. “I am not!” you say. - yes, yes you are. No exceptions.

This isn’t some shocking revelation. Our society depends on it. We are complacent, but easily manipulated sheeple. There are people, lets call them ‘activists’ that recognize this and try to manipulate other sheeple into supporting their cause, whatever that may be.

What cause? well, anything. As benign as getting you to support their charity for sick kids, all the way to supporting a war against some other sheeple they don’t like, and everything in between. Whichever politician gets the most sheeple to vote for them wins the election. Look at all the attack ads that try to convince you that the other candidate is morally corrupt, willl waste your money, etc.

They do this by evoking emotion in you. Compassion, fear, greed, envy, anger, hatred, jealousy, joy etc.

For instance, Apple wants you to buy their newest iGadget 3.0, that’s identical to their iGadget 2.0 except for one minor feature, or a politician wants you to support their candidate rather than the other one, or they want you to support their policies or wars.

If they are good at it they can get you wound up enough to go bomb their enemies. If they are really good, you’ll be wearing the bomb.

So what does this have to do with privileges or advantages?

Well, advantages do suck if you are not the one benefiting, there is no doubt about that. many advantages are unfair, and shouldn’t exist. However, many are also inherent. Being tall, is an advantage if you are trying to reach something on the top shelf, not so much when going under a low ceiling. Certainly being part of the majority ethnic group where you live gives you a number of unfair advantages.

But people generally don’t get riled up over advantages. Especially ones they can’t change. If you are 4’11’’ you don’t waste your emotions being angry at someone else who was born with genes giving them a 6’ height. Maybe Bob got a higher salary than you, or got a promotion despite you and he basically being equally skilled at your job. Now, this may be because someone in HR thought Bob was more qualified due to his having different equipment than you between his legs, but then again, maybe hes just a better negotiator, or some other reason. You get annoyed, sure, but not enough to do something about it, right? Certainly not angry at Bob, who likely has no idea he’s making more money than you.

No one really gets worked up over advantages.

But, see, activists want you to be angry. not just at the faceless HR person, but at Bob too, and anyone like them. The angrier you get the more likely you will listen to their spiel about how unfair it is, and more likely that you will support their cause.

No one really gets worked up over advantages. Privilege, on the other hand… well that gets people riled up, doesn’t it? “Let them eat cake!” Marie Antoinette said. Did she really? Who knows, probably, but you can bet French activists at the time did their best to convince their fellow peasants she did, all the better to get them to help lop off her head.

Bob isn’t just ‘advantaged’… Oh no, he’s privileged. He wants you to make less than him. He thinks he deserves more than you. He doesn’t want you to have what he’s getting either. He doesn’t want to lose his privilege.

That’ll get you riled up won’t it?

Because that’s what privilege really means, isn’t it? A minority having power and perks over the ‘little people’. Thinking their better than you. hogging all the perks and luxuries, and preventing you from getting access to them Greedy bastages.

So yeah, in conclusion, this common use of ‘privilege’ isn’t anything more than propaganda intended to manipulate you into thinking like the activist who came up with it, and supporting their cause.

How just the cause is, is irrelevant really. It’s still propaganda.

[Voyager]

Advantages and privileges are different.
An advantage applies to a specific situation. Being tall is an advantage if you want to reach something from a high shelf. Being short is an advantage if your are flying steerage or want to fit through a small opening.
Privileges belong to classes. As a respectable looking white male I know that if a cop stops me I’ll be probably treated with respect. That’s clearly not true if I’m a black male. It is an advantage to me when and if I get stopped. The privilege part comes from me being able to drive without worrying about horrible things happening if I get stopped.
My kids, thanks to the advantage of their intelligence, could get into good colleges. They were privileged because I make enough that the cost of college was not an issue.

Another example. Guys who look Mexican who are legal can get hassled. Guys who look Canadian, who aren’t legal, aren’t hassled. The first guy has the advantage of being a citizen, the second guy does not - but the second guy is privileged over the first guy.

[Frylock]

BrianJ, you just said that privilege doesn’t exist, then stated that it’s another name for something that does exist.

[ITR_champion]

@amarinth

To me, there’s a difference between being disagreed with and being invalidated.

To me, being disagreed with means that someone has listened to my opinion or argument, taken it into consideration and evaluated it, and responded to it based on the merits of the opinion or argument. Being invalidated means that the person dismissed and tuned out my words out of hand before they ever got to the content.

I could agree with that. But is there anybody who doesn’t get invalidated at some point in their lives?

[Fiveyearlurker]

@Voyager

Advantages and privileges are different.
An advantage applies to a specific situation. Being tall is an advantage if you want to reach something from a high shelf. Being short is an advantage if your are flying steerage or want to fit through a small opening.
Privileges belong to classes. As a respectable looking white male I know that if a cop stops me I’ll be probably treated with respect. That’s clearly not true if I’m a black male. It is an advantage to me when and if I get stopped. The privilege part comes from me being able to drive without worrying about horrible things happening if I get stopped.

I’m confused. There are clearly situations when being a member of any traditionally unprivileged class holds advantages.

I thought I was starting to understand this premise, and now I’ve lost it again.

[Voyager]

@Fiveyearlurker

I’m confused. There are clearly situations when being a member of any traditionally unprivileged class holds advantages.

I thought I was starting to understand this premise, and now I’ve lost it again.

Because once in a while we as a society recognize privilege and try to do something to even out the situation, like giving advantages to groups that are generally unprivileged. Privilege and advantage are not natural law, after all.