Who's really responsible for the "thin is perfect" female ideal? Hint -It's not men

In My Humble Opinion
101

[QUOTE=featherlou]
They endorse an even more difficult body type to achieve - the big, bubble-boobed, very thin woman.

I’m not willing to let anyone off the hook for so many people having such an adversarial relationship with their bodies - every source in a man or woman’s life who doesn’t contribute to them accepting their bodies the way they are is contributing to the problem, in my opinion.
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I like ‘real’ women as I stated in the OP, but there are practical limits to body acceptance. If my 19 daughter daughter is overweight I’ll talk with her strategies to lose weight, and encourage her to get cracking on it. I’ve been seriously fat, and it’s miserable state of being. I’m not going to coddle her into the inane belief that ll that matters is “what’s inside”. I’m not going to just let her go down that path without encouraging her to fight it. And yes, I do put her into a different category than a 30-40 something woman. A 19 year old can’t (IMO) carry around 20-40 extra lbs and be attractive the way and older, more mature woman can.

102

[QUOTE=astro]
I like ‘real’ women as I stated in the OP, but there are practical limits to body acceptance. If my 19 daughter daughter is overweight I’ll talk with her strategies to lose weight, and encourage her to get cracking on it. I’ve been seriously fat, and it’s miserable state of being. I’m not going to coddle her into the inane belief that ll that matters is “what’s inside”. I’m not going to just let her go down that path without encouraging her to fight it. And yes, I do put her into a different category than a 30-40 something woman. A 19 year old can’t (IMO) carry around 20-40 extra lbs and be attractive the way and older, more mature woman can.
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Accepting one’s body “the way it is” can be deadly as well as a social buzzkill. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person, but it certainly isn’t a good thing to be too fat or too thin. Accepting it no matter what is wrong.

103

Sorry. I meant to quote Featherlou. My bad.

104

[QUOTE=astro]
I like ‘real’ women as I stated in the OP, but there are practical limits to body acceptance. If my 19 daughter daughter is overweight I’ll talk with her strategies to lose weight, and encourage her to get cracking on it. I’ve been seriously fat, and it’s miserable state of being. I’m not going to coddle her into the inane belief that ll that matters is “what’s inside”. I’m not going to just let her go down that path without encouraging her to fight it. And yes, I do put her into a different category than a 30-40 something woman. A 19 year old can’t (IMO) carry around 20-40 extra lbs and be attractive the way and older, more mature woman can.
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The last thing a teenage girl needs is for her parents to tell her she’s overweight. She knows. The world tells her that on a daily basis. I’ve watched friends cry for hours because their parents told them they were fat. I know no girl that is over 115 pounds that isn’t constantly trying to lose weight and many of them feel terrible about it. A 19 year old is old enough to go buy a diet book, call a doctor or go to Weight Watchers. They do not need to have their parents, who they are still trying to set up adult boundries with, telling them they are overweight.

And I have at least two friends that have contemplated/attempted killing themselves from depression, caused in part by the fact they believed that they were fat and that no one would ever love them. I would far rather have an overweight, happy child than a dead skinny one.

105

[QUOTE=gfloyd]
The last thing a teenage girl needs is for her parents to tell her she’s overweight. She knows. The world tells her that on a daily basis. I’ve watched friends cry for hours because their parents told them they were fat. I know no girl that is over 115 pounds that isn’t constantly trying to lose weight and many of them feel terrible about it. A 19 year old is old enough to go buy a diet book, call a doctor or go to Weight Watchers. They do not need to have their parents, who they are still trying to set up adult boundries with, telling them they are overweight.

And I have at least two friends that have contemplated/attempted killing themselves from depression, caused in part by the fact they believed that they were fat and that no one would ever love them. I would far rather have an overweight, happy child than a dead skinny one.
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I don’t think the choices resolve down to keeping silent or having a suicidal child, nor do I think the best strategy is ignoring it if your kid is seriously overweight . I was an overweight kid, and life sucked on multiple levels due to that state of existence. My parents cared for me, but could offer me little in the way of strategies, advice, or effective options to lose weight. I’ve been fighting being heavy for decades (and not always successfully) and I’ll be damned if I’m going to let my daughter pork up into an enormous ball of lard just because her mother weighs 280 lbs, and keeps the house so stocked with food every fridge space, cupboard, nook and cranny is filled to bursting with food.

I will encourage her to lose weight and exercise. I just paid for an athletic club membership for her to help her in achieving these goals. And beyond this as an ex fatty who fights the calorie battle every single day of my life, I’m not going to lie to her about how the absolute misery of being truly fat. I have knowledge about effective strategies for losing weight and keeping it off, and I’ll be damned if I’m not going to share them with her.

Beyond a certain point point fat ceases to make a woman (or man) “real” and begins to make them grotesque and unhealthy. No one knows this better than fat people themselves. I knew it intimately every moment of my life when I was seriously overweight. Waddling through life is no way to live. Part of the (and probably the main) reason my daughter has weight control issues is her genetic heritage from her mother and myself, and I’m not going to encourage that she “accept” herself as a tub of lard. If someone had given me the strategic tools I needed to lose weight when I was younger my life would have been much happier.

106

Having excess body fat does not dehumanize a person.
Labeling someone a “tub of lard” is inaccurate; they remain a person.
If I wished I looked like someone else, I could work at changing my look, but I myself have never wanted something idly. I hear a lot of my co-workers say “I wish I had a flat stomach” and they hate my reply: “Then do situps.”
I have never wanted to do the work to maintain a thin body. I am lazy and self-indulgent and intelligent and charming and well-groomed and have great self-esteem. I have never pursued a man who was uninterested in my looks. I get hit on a lot. I get to know a man before I share my body. By the time I’m in his bedroom, I have no doubts he is lusting and anticipating and I am not shy. I have no apologies or need to cover up. The person that I am is more than my looks but I can’t expect anyone to know that–we are all visual creatures. I personally have never fallen in love through my eyes. I have fallen in love through my ears and in lust through my nose.
I am not a cow. I am not a whale. The fashion industry may promote clothes that do not suit my age and frame but I am a woman and I do not need to wear what dances on tv.
We are responsible individually to our own idea of the feminine or masculine ideal.

107

[QUOTE=Anaamika]
I’m not sure what you’re implying. That men don’t want thin women? Well, lots do, and as Anne says, **often make it clear loudly and nastily. **

I’d say it was from the media, anyway. Not too long ago women were considered more attractive if they were voluptuous and shapely. Now skinny is all the hype and all the magazines have uber-skinny girls in them as well as lots of TV actresses.
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EXACTLY.

108

[QUOTE=D_Odds]
Of course, men are immune to the reverse. No woman would look at a large man and simply write him off.

It’s a two way street.
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Ummm, not so fast. I PREFER “bears” to skinny men. In fact, I find skinny men a tremendous turn off.

109

[QUOTE=GingerOfTheNorth]
I am 25 pounds over my ideal weight. To the world, this makes me a fat cow. If I were not married, I would likely have a hard time getting a date.
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Ginger, my dear acquaintence whom I have actually met IRL, may I recount a Real Life Quote from a friend who might be considered a “fat cow?” “I have a roommate who was always dieting to be like what the men she knows supposedly want. She asked me why I always had men calling me, though I never made a big thing about my weight. ‘Simple,’ I said, ‘when I go to a party I unbutton a button on my blouse. Works every time!’”

C’mon, I’ve met you! You turn heads the way you are. You just don’t notice because you have been conditioned to assume you are unattractive.

110

[QUOTE=Cardinal]
Look around on the net and you’ll find many cites for the idea that a 0.7 waist to hip ratio is what is routinely picked by men as the most attractive female shape. It also seems to cross cultural boundaries, as I recall that one study showed silhouettes to very non-western men, and they picked close to that range also.
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The hip-to-waist ratio is all that really matters to me in terms of attractiveness. But it doesn’t seem to have much to do with a woman’s weight. Both obese women and really skinny women have lousy HTW ratios. Not attractive (to me), either of them.

And yet, you can have both slightly to moderately overweight, and slightly underweight women with fantastic HTW ratios. Yummy!

Of course it crosses cultural bounderies. That HTW ratio probably suggests to men subconsiously that those women would bear children well. Plus, they’re just hot.

111

[QUOTE=CanvasShoes]
Ummm, not so fast. I PREFER “bears” to skinny men. In fact, I find skinny men a tremendous turn off.
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Exactly. In the same way a woman 10-20 pounds underweight is desired over a woman 10-20 pounds overweight, it’s the exact opposite for men. Although, it’s a lot less common for men to have problems with being underweight. I go through the same eating, exercise and self-esteem problems…but to gain weight, not to lose it.

112

[QUOTE=SailBunny]
Isn’t it so that clothing sizes were scaled differently in the past? So that size 12/14 whatever is not truly the 12/14 of today. Does anyone think that the" thin is perfect" ideal is a recent development? Looking at pop culture from the 60’s, 70’s ect, those women seemed awfully skinny as well, maybe even skinnier.
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They weren’t scaled differently exactly, simply put they were numbered differently. Its called “vanity sizing” – and the more expensive your clothing is, the more likely it is to be numbered low for the actual dimensions.

They still use “old-time” sizing in clothing patterns – and I’d wager that Marilyn Monroe was a size 12 in the same sense that I am a size 12-14 when I buy patterns for dressmaking. In “ready-to-wear” sizing I am a 6 or sometimes a 4.

113

Astro, I’d only share my “strategies for losing weight” with someone if they asked me to and that includes my own daughters. Your anger and frustration towards fat is something you carry with you because of your own experiences. Your daughter doesn’t share those experiences. Buying her a gym membership because she’s gained a few pounds, in hopes that she won’t transform herself into an unattractive and unlovable “tub of lard” sounds overbearing at best and harmful at worst.

You’re her dad. For pete’s sake, quit obsessing about her weight.

114

[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
Astro, I’d only share my “strategies for losing weight” with someone if they asked me to and that includes my own daughters. Your anger and frustration towards fat is something you carry with you because of your own experiences. Your daughter doesn’t share those experiences. Buying her a gym membership because she’s gained a few pounds, in hopes that she won’t transform herself into an unattractive and unlovable “tub of lard” sounds overbearing at best and harmful at worst.

You’re her dad. For pete’s sake, quit obsessing about her weight.
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It’s not a constant topic, and it’s only addressed when she brings the subject up and gripes about wanting to lose weight, which is pretty much every time we get together, and it’s not “a few” lbs, it’s more like 35 lbs for her to get from 210lbs to 175lbs (IMO a comfortable weight) @ 5-10.

She asked me for the gym membership when we were discussing weight loss strategies and I agreed.

I will readily admit to be sensitive to my kids being significantly overweight, because I know what a huge, ponderous PITA it is to be in that condition, and it’s something you have to fight everyday. I don’t hector her about it if she doesn’t want to discuss it, but this notion that speaking directly and honestly to her about it is “obsessing” reflects (IMO) the worst possible attitude you can have toward helping people (especially young people) solve chronic problems.

The bald fact of the matter is being significantly overweight is unhealthy, unappealing and an absolutely miserable state of existence. I’m not going to “chill” and let her slide from 35 lbs over weight to 50-60-70-100+ lbs which is the direction her genetic heritage, eating and exercise habits are rapidly taking her. In the end you can’t control another person, they’re going to do what they’re going to do, but I’m not going to let that slide into morbid obesity without offering ever tool I can give her to fight it.

115

[QUOTE=astro]
I’ll be damned if I’m going to let my daughter pork up into an enormous ball of lard just because her mother weighs 280 lbs, and keeps the house so stocked with food every fridge space, cupboard, nook and cranny is filled to bursting with food.

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This sentence sounded so much like self-loathing to me that for a moment I thought you were talking about yourself. I can’t help feeling that what your daughter needs, along with the helpful strategies you have discovered and are sharing with her, is complete reassurance that you won’t feel that sort of disgust and hostility toward her that you display in this sentence no matter how well or ill her battle against excess weight goes.

116

I understand what you’re saying, astro, and I considered that perspective before I posted earlier, but I stand by what I said. Someone who truly loves themselves and their body is not likely to have the same issues with food, eating, and weight that most North Americans have. I’m not saying that accepting yourself exactly the way you are is a carte blanche to eat like there’s no tomorrow and never exercise, but it might be the key to getting off the dieting/gaining weight/emotional eating/hating yourself treadmill that I can pretty much guarantee you your daughter is on.

Imagine your daughter learning to love her body exactly the way it is. Now imagine her not eating a chocolate bar every day out of frustration or loneliness or whatever emotion she’s feeling, but comforting herself with the knowledge that she loves herself instead. Imagine her stopping her constant fight with her body, and actually losing weight and keeping it off because she’s acting more healthy because she wants to, not because she’s trying to force herself to do something she doesn’t really want to do.

If I was going to point the finger at one single culprit that perpetuates the miserable relationship that North Americans have with food, eating, and their weight, I would point at the advertising industry. The entire industry is negative - it’s all based on something you are personally lacking, or something lacking in your life. After years of being steeped in this attitude, it’s a wonder that we’re not all walking in front of trains.

117

[QUOTE=featherlou]
I understand what you’re saying, astro, and I considered that perspective before I posted earlier, but I stand by what I said. Someone who truly loves themselves and their body is not likely to have the same issues with food, eating, and weight that most North Americans have. I’m not saying that accepting yourself exactly the way you are is a carte blanche to eat like there’s no tomorrow and never exercise, but it might be the key to getting off the dieting/gaining weight/emotional eating/hating yourself treadmill that I can pretty much guarantee you your daughter is on.

Imagine your daughter learning to love her body exactly the way it is. Now imagine her not eating a chocolate bar every day out of frustration or loneliness or whatever emotion she’s feeling, but comforting herself with the knowledge that she loves herself instead. Imagine her stopping her constant fight with her body, and actually losing weight and keeping it off because she’s acting more healthy because she wants to, not because she’s trying to force herself to do something she doesn’t really want to do.

If I was going to point the finger at one single culprit that perpetuates the miserable relationship that North Americans have with food, eating, and their weight, I would point at the advertising industry. The entire industry is negative - it’s all based on something you are personally lacking, or something lacking in your life. After years of being steeped in this attitude, it’s a wonder that we’re not all walking in front of trains.
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I appreciate your perspective on this, but she’s not eating because she’s lonely, depressed or alienated. She’s eating for the same reason that I overate, and the same reason her mother (my ex) overeats, and that is because we have strong appetites, and like to eat. Eating is pleasurable and good sensuous fun. Consuming good tasting food is one of the highlights of my day. If a woman can cook well a little nimbus of stars surrounds her in my book.

Understanding this is important in controlling weight. Eating (even overeating) is not some pathology or sign of being emotionally distraught for us, it’s fun.

The keys to controlling weight are:

1: To put yourself into a space and a context where you understand the limits of what you can eat daily in order to maintain a given desired weight. And by desired weight, I’m not talking some skinny minnie stuff. I’m a big, strong guy and I like substantial women, but when your body starts to turn to pudding that is a huge turnoff.

2: Keeping a record of what you eat in some form or fashion and

3: Making sure you have lots of satisfying, healthy food that you enjoy, and alternatives to calorie dense junk available for when you are hungry. This last one is just as much work as any of the others.

Eating well can be fun and satisfying but if you are surrounded with massive quantities of calorie dense food (ie her mother’s house) you will tend to graze and make your path of least resistance choices from the available larder.

In the end you have to decide that you reall, really want to be a certain weight and if your genetics and appetite conspire against you to overeat this job is made doubly tough. People are free to make their own choices, but I do reject the notion that deciding to be morbidly obese, or near morbidly obese should be an acceptable lifestyle choice for my child. Maybe I’m fighting a losing battle, but I will continue to fight it.

118

[QUOTE=Lissa]
I recall hearing that James Cameron had bitched at Winslet to lose twenty pounds for the filming of Titanic. Supposedly, he made some snide remarks to her on set about it.
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Ya gotta remember, Cameron married Linda Hamilton, that freaky looking chick from the Terminator movies whom I believe subsequently came out as a lesbian. I don’t think we can use his standards as any kind of norm.

119

My theory?

Most straight women are attracted to defined muscle, hard lines, lean bodies- the things usually found on the male body.

Most straight men are attracted to curves, roundness and softness- things usually found on the female body.

When some women look at themselves and see roundness, softness, fullness, they don’t like what they see, because it isn’t attractive to them.

Plus, of course, there is fashion- clothes look best on bodies that resemble a coathanger as closely as possible.

120

[QUOTE=astro]
<snip> I do reject the notion that deciding to be morbidly obese, or near morbidly obese should be an acceptable lifestyle choice for my child. Maybe I’m fighting a losing battle, but I will continue to fight it.
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Ah, that’s a tough call - you want what’s best for your child; you want her to be healthy and happy, but you don’t want to get obsessed with her weight, or encourage her to be obsessed with her weight. Have you talked to your daughter and told her that you love her unconditionally, no matter what her weight is? Do you talk about other things with her, or is your relationship focused mainly on talking about diets and related stuff? Why does she want to lose weight? To be healthier, or because she thinks she’s fat and ugly?

It sounds like it is very important to you that she not live her life as a fat person (and you have good reasons for not wanting that for her), and she’s probably picking that up from you.