Who's to Blame for Trump's Oversteps in Law?

Carrying on a discussion from a different thread:

Except I think this fellow was radicalized long before Trump or his lawyers became the subject of any gag orders, so I fail to grasp the nexus between one thing and the other.


What I find troublesome is how eager so many are to blame the judicial branch for not fixing all the problems wrought upon us by Trump and Trumpism. It seems to me that there are many who are far more culpable than our judicial system: Republicans in Congress, Trump’s many evil allies such as his many former cabinet members, Fox “News,” Steve Bannon, Putin, the NRA, Vicktor Orban and the list is basically endless. Yet you and so many others want to lay the blame at the feet of one judge who, for 11 days, lifts a narrow gag order in order to follow established precedent of maintaining the status quo pending a speedy outcome – one likely to reinstate the gag order.

My point is, what’s left of a dedicated judiciary, carrying out their duties within the confines of the law (and like it or not, there are confines), is about the only thing standing between our democracy and a fascist state. Consider perhaps that your frustration and anger is misplaced.

Sure it is, but it’s understandable to be frustrated when Trump yet again gets to do whatever he wants because an official is doing the right thing. I think a lot of people feel like, in the case of the gag order, the only thing necessary for evil to get kicked in the teeth was for a good man to do nothing.

It’s good that the independent judiciary is doing its job, but it’s hard when it’s to the benefit of somebody who would happily burn down every one of our institutions, the courts included.

I totally get all that.

Trump turns my stomach, and even more so because we are forced to deal with him in a Robert’s Rules of Order world while he shits all over every norm we have, dating back to the founding of this nation. Believe me, it’s not that I don’t get the basis for the anger.

I’m just saying that if we continually blame the people who are trying their best to fix things, we weaken what little stands between us and where we regularly proclaim we don’t want to be. And this troubles me a great deal.

Counterpoint, Aileen Cannon. Seriously, there is plenty of blame to go around, but I think the frustration results from, as you say @Aspenglow, -some- dedicated judiciary are working by the rules with the best intents for the nation, to bring fair justice.

And a substantially influential number of the same group, including Aileen Canon and a NUMBER of the SCOTUS are… not. Those individuals are putting their thumbs very heavily on the scales, depending on the incredible political difficulty inherent in our system to hold our judicial branch responsible.

Still, your point is fair, but the frustration is real. it’s like watching your ‘team’ (and I know part of the frustration is tribal, which is why I’m using the analogy) play a good game, but every time the ref’s back is turned, the other team fouls and cheats, but the ref didn’t see it so has to give the benefit of the doubt, or is actively in on the cheats.

And of course, the other team has that super assh*** Dad that is constantly throwing things, threatening kids and parents alike, but also loudly proclaiming that it’s all part of the game.

Oh, no question! Which is why to me it’s all the more important to at least try and understand why good judges working within the confines of the rules – even if we don’t always understand them – should be supported and not bagged on out of the gate.

I read Judge Friedman’s order. He has a legitimate basis for sticking with the status quo pending a hearing. I dislike the practical outcome of it as much as anyone, but I know he’s doing it for a good reason.

Trump did a lot of damage to our judiciary in his 4 years sitting in the Oval, but he didn’t destroy it. Let’s not tear down what’s left of the ones fighting on our side.

Oh, I mostly agree with you, which is why I didn’t participate in the hijack in the original thread. I hate the individuals who depend upon the forbearance of our society to spread their hate, and weep for the likely results.

But I’m Lawful Neutral. It is their right to have their considerations reviewed in a court of law, although they explicitly deny that right to others. And that, more than anything else, is IMHO what is driving the pushback: the unbearable cheek of it all. The blatant hypocrisy, on TOP of my previous mention of how many have flat out broken the system to give Trump and his ilk an edge.

As you said “what’s left of a dedicated judiciary”. And since there is so little pushback, it seems that there is strong feeling that they should be protected from what Trump and his ilk are doing in inciting violence against his enemies. Granted, it seems by our legal standards, to not quite meet the “imminent danger” requirements of Brandenburg and later rulings, but I think that in light of Jan 6 Trump does not deserve the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps once the full hearing is complete, the judges handling said hearing will agree.

One can hope.

Unfortunately, the bounds of a state civil trial are not the place to look for a toothsome gag order. The fact that there is a gag order at all is highly unusual in a civil case.

Let’s watch what happens with the gag order in the criminal January 6th Insurrection case.

How do you play by, and maintain the utmost respect for, the Rule of Law when your opponent Could Not Give A Single F*** about it.

It’s a heady question.

The whole thing reminds me of the story of Ken McElroy:

Skidmore, Missouri found their answer. I hope the US finds its/ours.

One of the main reasons I think the judges hearing Trump cases (with the exception of Aeleen Cannon, who is IMHO a piece of shit) are kid-gloving these gag orders is because they know Trump will appeal them all the way to the SCOTUS. They don’t want to take any chances that this horrible SCOTUS will take the opportunity to grab even more power through their rulings. Their efforts to carefully balance the rights of a defendant to free speech against the threat of that unbridled speech to court staff, witnesses and jurors must be so obvious that it pisses most people off. (Mission accomplished, looks like.)

In other words, even this SCOTUS can’t find a way to fault the trial court/appellate court judges’ decisions.

If we think about the ways gag orders could be abused by unscrupulous judges, it puts the concerns by “good” judges to bend over backwards to protect the rights of defendants in a very different light.

We are in very precarious times. I just hate seeing good judges undermined at a time of our greatest vulnerability, when we are relying on them for so much. As you may have noticed, it touches a deep nerve with me.

In my very humble opinion, If the IRS/DOJ had done their job properly, Trump would have been charged a long time ago and maybe none of this would be happening. But I say this knowing full well that either or both institutions were likely hamstrung by budgetary constraints and other political shenanigans through the many years.

I do appreciate the special care that the judicial system is taking with the situation now in order to not be over-turned on appeal later. I certainly understand that this is a very unique one of a kind type situation.

I do have the feeling that there are an awful lot of people that were hoping Trump would pass away by now and the problem would solve itself. And I do have a few concerns that fear of his supporters and what they might do might influence some of the decisions being made.

I hope there are some smart democrats working on new ways to shore up “everything” so that the next Trump won’t succeed.

There is a very American perspective implicit in this position, a dedication and commitment to upholding the letter of the law and the fundamentals of freedom as the highest principles of civilized society.

But compare:

The European Union includes a Right to Freedom of Expression in its charter, expressed in fairly expansive language: “Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.”

And yet: Germany strictly bans the expression of Nazi ideology, the display of Nazi symbols and paraphernalia, and the articulation of associated beliefs like Holocaust denial.

These would be in conflict, no? According to the principles of fundamental rights, Germany should allow Nazis to organize and advocate for themselves. And modern Nazi wannabes have, indeed, brought lawsuits on such grounds.

The resulting decisions have consistently gone against them. The justifications are of course dressed up in legal language, but the core of the rejection is, basically, too bad, get bent.

Predictably, free-speech absolutists like the Koch-funded Cato Institute decry this position as hypocritical, describing it as “disturbing” and an “attack” on freedom. People and groups sharing this Libertarian position claim not to be defending Nazi groups and thought; they say they condemn the Nazis, but they also say that a country asserting itself as a free state cannot ban expression it doesn’t like.

Germany ignores this criticism and maintains the ban, and the EU allows it. Indeed, the EU’s Charter of Fundamental Rights incorporates the European Convention on Human Rights by reference, which includes a secondary article accompanying and clarifying the right of free expression. This secondary article states that free speech carries “duties and responsibilities” and therefore certain “formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties” may be imposed where these are considered “necessary in a democratic society” to serve parallel interests of security, safety, or other freedoms. This language tempering the absolutism of the first article was included specifically to allow Germany to make an exception for the poison of Nazism, in addition to serving the desire of other states to impose and enforce certain specific limitations, such as restricting disclosures regarding judicial proceedings in progress to allow the court to function without interference.

Naturally free-speech absolutists believe there should be no limitation on expression, and, indeed, there is a risk of abuse inherent in such exceptional language. To address this, European legal authorities have published lengthy guidance on interpreting the text and balancing the fundamental right to free expression with the need to maintain and defend a governing apparatus which allows this freedom to exist.

Basically, Europe knows from hard experience that unfettered liberty carries with it the seeds of its own destruction. The paradox of freedom is that malicious forces will exploit it, hijacking the free society with the paradoxical aim of ending those freedoms. European planners accept that there may be a contradiction in principle but the needs of reality demand the compromise. And, indeed, the World Press Freedom Index produced by Reporters without Borders consistently places European countries very highly in the world ranking, including Germany, despite the putatively hypocritical refusal to allow certain forms of expression.

What is the point of all this? As realists are fond of saying, the Constitution is not a suicide pact. Of course it must be noted that this phrase originally appeared as a dissent to a Supreme Court decision which maintained a strict doctrinaire view of free expression without regard to real-world considerations, and therefore this opposing view has no force of law. Nevertheless, it’s a powerfully worded phrase and persists as a much-repeated argument in matters like this, especially in a world where the modern conservative Court seems bound and determined to use the Constitutional language of freedom to destroy freedom with no apparent sense of irony.

As currently constituted, US law demands absolutism, so, yes, the courts are doing the “right thing” by upholding Trump’s free-speech right to run roughshod over democracy. Evidently Americans need to suffer the actual consequences of principle-above-all absolutism to understand how and why that approach will lead to self-annihilation.

So, who’s to blame for Trump’s oversteps in law? I would argue no specific party is at fault, and rather we should blame the general American mindset that it’s preferable to lock one’s feet into the concrete shoes of the First Amendment and sink into a watery grave than it is to recognize that Trump represents an exceptional threat which requires an exceptional response in order to, y’know, defend democracy.

I’d suggest that Trump himself is responsible.

For years, Trump would be sued by, say, contractors who hadn’t been paid. Likely, he just threw the complaint at his lawyers, and said, “Take care of this, willya?” And they did, and they got paid. If they said that they could settle for ten cents on the dollar, Trump would go along with it. He had the money, his legal team had made a great deal as a result, and he was seen (by some, not everyone) as a sharp and canny businessman.

But here’s the thing: Trump’s delaying tactics that he used while stiffing contractors who sued him, and forced them to withdraw or settle for pennies on the dollar due to their lack of funds to pay for ongoing legal representation, aren’t going to work this time. The State of New York and the State of Georgia and the United States government have much deeper pockets than Mr. Trump. But he keeps trying, costing himself more. Whether he’s actually paying his lawyers right now is immaterial; what matters is that he hasn’t yet learned that taking on (for example) the State of New York cannot be resolved in the same way as he took on the XYZ Interior Decorators who wallpapered the ballroom at Mar-a-Lago, and never got paid. They couldn’t afford adjournments, continuances, motions to dismiss, and so on. The State of New York can.

By continuing to behave as if he’s dealing with XYZ Interior Decorators when he’s up against the State of New York (and the state of Georgia and the federal government), he’s mistaken in his approach. He’s not going to succeed in the delaying tactics that worked so well against XYZ. He’s going to lose if he keeps trying those. Which he does. So he’s the architect of his own misfortune, and thus, he’s to blame for his oversteps in law.

Aside: Is there such a thing as a “solicitor’s lien” in American law? This is something we can use in Canada. Basically, if a client doesn’t pay the lawyer’s tab, the lawyer can slap a lien on the client’s assets and/or property. If Trump’s lawyers are not being paid, then perhaps they should slap a solicitor’s lien on Trump properties, so they can get paid. I’m sure that the seizure and sale of Trump Tower and 40 Wall Street would more than pay the lien amount and settle the rest of his legal tab.

My own, admittedly casual reading of this phenomenon is that for years people grew up hearing both that the law treats everyone equally and that there is a separate set of laws, unofficial, for Rich old white men. It now appears, and I do stress ‘appears’, that we are seeing a real-time demonstration that the latter statement is more accurate. Now of course that’s not to say that there’s not a very good reason for the way things are playing out. But I completely understand the frustration. And the worst part about it is the only reason this is happening is because Trump won the presidency once. If he hadn’t all of this would still be going on he would still be conning and scamming people and defrauding the state of New York not to mention the rest of the country. It’s commonly said that winning the presidency was the worst thing that could ever have happened to him because it placed a much harsher spotlight on his actions.

I view it as a corollary to people’s frustration with Democrats not seeming able to hit back with the same amount of force as Republicans do. When one side insists on reason, logic, equality and empathy and the other side lacks all of those things it really does feel like you’re fighting with one hand behind your back. Just MHO.

I’ve heard it said that you have as much justice as you can afford. Obviously the text of the law is the same for everyone, but only the sufficiently rich can afford to explore all the minutiae and avail themselves of all possible avenues of defense. I suppose it’s technically a good thing that Trump is trying everything he can to shirk responsibility, in that precedents will be set that the law applies to everyone, including former presidents and current candidates running for election.

I agree having deep pockets (from donations) allows people like Trump to exploit every weakness of the law, and every ember of percieved bias in a court. But his bleating led to people getting killed on J6, as we all saw with our own eyes and ears, yet he still walks a free man and is a leading candidate for the Presidency. I understand the reasoning for lifting the gag order and I support the judicial system we have, but the real test of all this will be if that clerk ends up harassed, injured, or dead as a result of some right wing nutbag who was motivated to action by Trump’s bleating.

Boy - good question. Who is to blame? Personally, I have been shocked to have learned how much I assumed was established and unquestioned “law” was, in fact, merely “agreements” or longstanding patterns of behavior by actors who believed certain standards of respect or decorum were appropriate. It has been shocking to see how readily those longstanding traditions could be toppled by one asshole and a motivated minority - both in and out of office - who were perfectly willing to tear down any and all institutions. Once this asshole and his supporters built up a head of steam, it was astoundingly impressive how readily one half of Congress would go along with it. It was less surprising - tho tremendouslly dismaying - to see how much impact very small numbers of people could have on the courts and in local politics. And how poorly our institutions are set up to address this.

So there is plenty of blame to go around, from the general public, liberal complacency, media promotion, Republican office holders and ideological jurists. But has there been ANY single individual who has had more of an efect on American life in the past 75 years than Trump?

I think it comes down to the difference between de jure responsibility and de facto responsibility. The actual legal responsibility to hold a President to account for breaking the law definitely does reside with the Federal judiciary. And in large part, that’s what’s going on now- I feel like having a President’s picked man (Atty General, cabinet member) expected to rein him in and if need be, prosecute him is unrealistic. But the next guy’s administration surely is expected to do so. And I think there’s a definite expectation that the states’ governors and other people in positions of power not directly appointed by the sitting President (Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Postmaster General, etc.) have a responsibility to push back on behalf of their own organizations.

But in terms of the moral and ethical obligations to keep a President from breaking the law? That’s the job of the President’s Cabinet and their close advisors. It should be the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Interior, the White House Chief of Staff, the National Security Advisor, and so on telling the President NOT to do these things. That’s part of why a competent President picks the people they do- because they’re trusted to tell him no and push back when necessary. But when you get someone who just wants yes-men, well we’ve seen how that plays out.

That, my good sir, was a lynching. I truly hope we find a soluation as well, but I an hopeful it is not extra-judicial, or what our Republican friends liked to call a 2nd Amendment solution.

As to who I blame for Trump’s oversteps in the law, ultimately I blame his supporters. Not just the people who voted for him, but the members of our government who not only turn a blind eye towards his antics but actively assist him. Trump continues his bad behavior knowing those people will support him seemingly no matter what he does.

And, astoundingly, for no gain of their own whatsoever. In many cases they are hurting themselves. It seems they’re only motivation is to own libs. SMH

This is what really galls me about Trump. (Well, one of several things.) A year from now he might be flat broke, incarcerated, or (hopefully) both, but he’ll still be able to truthfully claim that he was one of the most important Americans of all time. Because no matter what happens, things changed permanently when he took office.