That’s not what I said. I said if you don’t vote for Biden, then you don’t want Biden to win.
But then you said the outcome was Trump winning. But if you don’t vote for Trump then you don’t want him to win and the only other outcome is Biden winning. That’s the point I was making
This is obviously a big part of it. As I’ve stated I think the actual likelihood of that happening is exceedingly low, but then I’ve been a cynical fatalist since I was a toddler. There has never been a national election where I was enthused about a candidate (any candidate) and I suspect almost by definition there can’t be for me.
To be fair, I think for some it is ‘Biden will win anyway, but at least I’ll feel the satisfaction of sticking to my principles!’ Or a variant of it just doesn’t matter. Some holding that position have explicitly said that they are voting in “solid” states where they expect their individual votes to have no meaningful impact on the election. Which is very likely true, though very, very remotely not. It amounts to the same argument that non-voters use - it doesn’t make a difference if I vote. Only in this case with the added flavor of sticking to moral principles of not voting for the “lesser of evils.”
It’s not really illogical. It’s just wrong 
.
Yes, that’s accurate, for those who think rationally.
The issue really is (and this is independent of Biden/Trump 2024) that IF enough people who don’t vote or those that vote for the lesser of two evils went 3rd party it might change the two-party dynamic. Sounds impossible but look at the 1912 election where the Progressives got 2nd place and 1968 where Wallace almost threw the election into the House. So it could happen.
You’re right. It is wrong.
I don’t think there’s any prinicple in NOT voting for the lesser of two evils. The fact is that the election is coming, and the winner will be president. And try to enforce policies to their preference. This is going to happen, and you can vote Biden or Trump or do the third party or non-vote that’s effectively a half vote for each. I do not consider this principled at all.
The problem with our current dynamics is yeah, we have less choice probably. Maybe years ago it was like joining the Lions Club or the Elks Club, yeah the internal dynamics might be different, but you could probably find someone to form a close relationship with in either.
Now it’s more like the basic thought patterns are different. It’s why no one is having the same discussions about Trump that they have about Biden. Rational people may not have a voice at all in this Republican party. It’s all emotion. So that leaves more people with just a singular choice, since the other option has become alien to them.
So I can understand frustration in people thinking they are coerced or that choice has been taken away. In some degrees it probably has. I think people need to face up to the fact that it indeed does not exist, that the elections still have the same degree of consequence that they always do.
Regardless of this election, unless we can back away from this somehow I don’t see a good ending. Basically we’re on the top without clear opposition, so we’ve decided to have an intra-family feud. Splitting into multiple countries would suck for mostly everyone and some people a lot, I’m not sure it would solve anything as many people are unrealistic about our current state and it would just be a painful wake up call to reality and a lower standard of living. But I’m sure similar things have happened before. People squander inheritances all the time.
One of which led to the election of arguably the most racist man to hold the office of the president in the 20th century, and the other led to the election of Richard Nixon.
I think here is the additional unspoken assumption, namely that the voter prefers one or the other outcome. In that case a choice to discard the vote rather than vote for the preferred outcome would be a choice that supports makes the preferred outcome less likely. If they really think that Biden and Trump entirely equal than voting third party or not voting doesn’t matter. It shouldn’t bother them if they were “blamed” for Trump winning because that isn’t a bad outcome, its an entirely neutral outcome.
As an example of this, I am probably not going to vote in my states Democratic primary for Senate. I like both of the candidates about equally well, and hearing tomorrow that one or the other of them won would not in any way make me disappointed or elated. If I get “blamed” for a Trone win/loss, who cares I don’t consider either to be bad outcomes. In fact not voting is probably one of the more Democratic things I can do since I leave the decision up to those who actually have a preference rather than sticking my little thumb one way or another on the scale.
What people here seem to be complaining about is the irrationality of people who recognize that a Trump presidency would be massively worse than a Biden one, but won’t vote for Biden because they don’t like some of his particular policies (e.g. Gaza) despite the fact that Trump is worse even in those areas.
Of course believing that the two candidates are equal is itself a different form of irrationality.
2008 was the only presidential election in my lifetime where I thought either candidate (McCain or Obama) would have made a good president. In a vacuum, in fact, I might have preferred McCain due to his experience. Of course, we were just coming off 8 years of GWB, so I decided I couldn’t stomach another Republican.
And then, the GOP’s reaction to Obama’s election slammed the door for me on nearly all future GOP candidates. /hijack
I think you’re missing something - if third party voters cause Biden to lose, then you - and all Biden voters - will suffer the consequences of a Trump second term just as much as anyone else.
It’s in the interest of Biden and Biden supporters to give third-party voters a convincing reason to vote for Biden. So far, merely lecturing them that “a vote that’s not for Biden is a vote for Trump” has been less than persuasive.
Fair enough. But, as others have pointed out, third parties would make more headway if they focused on local and state elections instead of quixotic presidential runs.
Scroll back through the thread and you’ll find dozens of them. It’s not working.
The third party voters will also suffer.
Own your vote. Why do Biden supporters need to convince third party supporters? If you are voting third party, or not voting, apparently you genuinely believe there is not a distinct different between Biden and Trump. So “everyone will suffer, but the Biden supporters need to coo sweetly to the third party supporters…” everyone is a voter. If you think there’s no difference, own it.
Or better yet work to get ranked choice voting implemented.
Who says I’m trying to persuade? I’m simply stating things I believe are logically and obviously true.
I think the unspoken probability in this thread is that not voting for Biden => Trump wins. That’s the reason I gave the reciprocal of iiandyiii’s syllogism and pointed out a non-Biden vote does not equal a Trump vote. What I’m gathering is that the real fear is that if all of those who are undecided, 3rd party, protest votes, &c. do not vote for Biden even if they do not vote for Trump then Biden will lose.
Or we need to nominate a candidate that appeals to them.
There’s nothing special about Biden or Trump in the calculus here. Everything I said applies no matter who the candidates are.
Don’t blame me, I voted for Perot.
But then the fear in this thread is that if that voter were forced to choose then they would choose Biden. That may be reasonable however going by the 2020 popular vote for just Biden and Trump there would be only a 52.27% chance that the voter would choose Biden over Trump.
One belief I have always held is that in a re-election year is that people vote against the incumbent and not for the other candidate. Many of the undecided will not be voting for Trump as much as not-Biden. This election is weird with two former Presidents running against each other so as evident on SD, there are many voting not-Trump who happens to be Biden. The difference may be that Dems refuse to recognize the not-X vote such as 2016 when people voted not-Hillary so by default Trump got the vote.
So the strategy on both side is to ensure the undecided or 3rd partiers do not vote not-your candidate. I think Dems will continue to fail to see that and I don’t know about the Pubs. But if Biden loses, blame the Dem campaign managers for not seeing the obvious strategy.