Whose Bones Are These...

Factual Questions
1

Lissa said in the Tomb of Osiris Thread:"This has little to do with this, but I was in the Louvre a couple of weeks ago, and I was appalled at what I saw. In one of the Egyptian rooms, a shrivled, backened corpse lay naked in a case with a cloth draped across his hips, presumably to give the poor man a bit of dignity. He looked so pitiful and exposed, and it struck me that this was the body of a human being and that in a thousand years from now it could be my body laying in that coldly lighted, humidity - controlled case, photographed by tourists, and far from my native soil.

Large slabs of beautifully decorated granite hung on the walls, with a small sign indicating that it had come from this tomb or that. Hacked from the tomb wall, I imagine.

As I looked at that long-dead man who lay on the table, I felt almost guilty. We took
away his tomb, any trinkets that we found, the inscriptions, and even his wrappings. It
struck me as very sad."

American Indians have said the same thing, probably not as elequently, and a little more. Now they can claim any remains that can be possibly identified as indian remains and re-bury them. Science, curiosity, and history be darned. For them it is a religious thing.

What do you think, does religion take precedence over science, history and * curiosity*?

HOw can it be moral for any modern people to remove the ancient dead from their graves, people, and even country?

Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.

2

This might belong in GD, rather than GQ.

I believe that with modern equipment, we could reproduce the effects of the tomb, and then leave it in peace, could we not? Do we need to study the actual artifact, or could we duplicate it and study that?

I sold my soul to Satan for a dollar. I got it in the mail.

3

After I’m dead, I doubt that I will care what anybody do with my body. Bury me, burn me, roast me, slice me and serve me at Arby’s, dice me, create mounds of julienne fries with my insides, make a canoe with my outsides, introduce your John Thomas to my forever frigid bunghole, freeze me, fumigate me, pump me full of formaldehyde, cut off my head, heart, and feet and put me in the headless-heartless-feetless computer geek museum, whatever.

Whatever you believe happens after life, doubtless I won’t be around to object. And whether I exist someplace else or not, I won’t care too much about what happens to the place I just left. I won’t be pining for the fjords, and wouldn’t be muscleing up to the coffin and voom ripping the lid off if you put 10000 volts through me. Morality don’t enter into it, I’ll be bleedin’ demised, joined the choir invisible, pushin’ up daisies. I’ll be an ex-Straight Doper.

But, that’s just my opinion.

This sig not Y2K compliant. Happy 1900.

4

I never understood the Native American concern with the proper burial of their ancestors’ remains until I looked into it a little more. The storage of Native American remains in card board boxes in old store rooms makes the current resting place of your mummy look like he is reposing in Westminster Abbey. I have tried to discuss with Indians the scientific and historic value of analyzing the remains (were the Sioux descended from the Hopewell?, where did they Adena come from? disease and malnutrition as a cause of the Mississippians’ decline?) but no dice. The past treatment of the remains was so scandalous that nothing but reburial will do. When they reburied the in-situ skeletons at Dickson Mounds south of Chicago, they did it with sterile sand. Maybe someday they can be redisinterred.

5

Not an easy question, is it? I know that when the “white men” were exploring all others were savages and it just didn’t matter what was done to them.

The last living full blooded Tasmanians were displayed on their deaths (1869 + 1876), the man especially got rough treatment - scientists claimed he was a missing link between men and apes and fought over his body. The corpse was continually dug up and reburied, parts being removed each time. One doctor even made a tobacco pouch of Lanne’s skin. Seems pretty brutal even a hundred or so years ago.

Weren’t Indian skulls used in a Yale frat ceremony? Something to do with the future President George Bush Sr. when he was a student?

Properly measured and photographed I can’t see why American Indian bones can be reburied right after they are found. Should we go looking for them and digging them up? How did we get the “right” to do that?

Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.

6

sorry to nitpick, but i prefer “in the middle of illinois” over “chicago” dickson mounds is probably 4 or 5 hours from chicago by car. it’d be better to say west of peoria, or middle of illinois (it’s over a half hour away from peoria). chicago is too ‘inhumane’.

7

On a similar disturbing note…
I had the misfortune of visiting a morgue once with my anatomy class at Syracuse U. We were going to draw corpses. If it was good enough for Leonardo…
Anyways, while we were down in the lab, first thing I saw was about 25 tables with bodies on them, covered with sheets but missing heads. Apparently the med students were having an exam on the head and there was some disecting involved. Now this only partially freaked me out.
What really freaked me out was the display case hanging in the room filled with jars of formaldahide (I presume) with deformed foetuses inside. It was like a circus freak show. Two headed babies, babies with the organs growing on the outside. All sorts of horrible disfigurement. What really got to me is that this seemed less like a scientific study and more like a disrespectful display for the kicks of the staff/students. It’s been about 5 years since and the image stays with me. Incidentally, I’m pro-choice and don’t have a lot of issues with foetuses typically, but this seemed really uncalled for.
Lesson learned for me: don’t donate your body to science and know what happens to your newborn if something this unfortunate ever happens.

8

Gee that’s creepy.

I’d forgotten that physical therapists get a body for study, too. Or they have to share one with a partner–and spend the rest of the course time discecting it.

I know how important it is, but it still is creepy.

9

I’m with tbea925. When my body gives up it should be reduced to ashes. What’s “moral” about cemetaries full of graves eating up the land that should be otherwise available to future generations. If you camp on this planet, and figure you’re going somewhere else after you die where you’ll need it, carry it out with the rest of your garbage. Otherwise, we’ll burn it – or if your body has the right stuff, we’ll let you mulch it.

How did we get the right to dig up American Indian bones? By grabbing the land from the Indians over their dead bodies, as I’m told – as most rights have been taken from others.

Or leave this planet ecologically: Compost your body – the really moral way to go.

If it’s good enough for pigs, it’s good enough for you of the similar meat.

And just exactly why should Jois figure anyone would be interested in exhibiting his body in a museum? Has he produced something adequately historical in this world of famous people? In any case, if he doesn’t want his body to end up thus, let him have it reduced to ashes or composted.

As to monster babies in formaldehyde, I recall seeing those in doctors’ offices as a small child in the '30s. My mother then had to explain to me what they were all about. Doctors really know how to decorate their offices. Never checked their lampshades though.

Ray (I make no bones about it.)

“The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless.” – Steven Weinberg, Physicist

10

Oh, I was also going to mention that once a friend got ahold of a human brain (don’t ask; don’t tell – a friend of his at a medical school, I believe – someone’s donation to science) and several of us had a slicing good brain-educational session at my house. This was one of the regular meetings of my friend’s Brain Group. He was one; I didn’t really qualify. Well, that was back in the good old days of the early '70s in Bezerkeley. We were all cut-ups then.

Ray (dust to dust, however you slice it)

11

RAY! That “pigs” article read like, “A Modest Proposal” give it a “Yuk +” rating.

And I wasn’t so concerned about my body (I do plan to have the dogs dig a hole in the back yard sufficient to the purpose) but of those already dead and buried, dug up and moved to the Smithsonian in a cardboard box; moved to a museum; moved from where the dearly “left behind” had planted you forever and ever.

We can have a nice little what’s in the jar talk after I’ve eaten…later…much later.

Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.

12

To me, the issue isn’t what YOU think is a “moral” treatment of a grave, but what THEY thought. Does a person have any right to their body (and possessions) after they’re dead? Fine if you don’t care what happens to your body afterwards, but some of the people buried did care. For example, the ancient Egyptian kings went to great lengths to keep their body in the pyramids, which was part of their overall religous belief about going to the next world. Why should someone be able to come along later and dig them up? How is that different than me going to a modern graveyard and digging up random people today, to perform some scientific study?

Of course there IS a difference, I think, but just one of degree. How long do you wait before the bones are “fair game”? Until the race has died out? Until their religion has died out (which presumably implies that the religion wasn’t the “true” one, so the beliefs don’t matter)? Until there is no one alive who personally cares about them? Does the motive of the grave-digger matter (i.e. scientific exploration vs. stealing valuables), and who judges that?

Arjuna34

13

What is the difference between a grave robber, and an anthropologist?

Different schools.

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<FONT FACE=“Webdings” SIZE=5 COLOR="#ff2400"> ** - ** </FONT>

14

Jois:

Well, when that hassle was going on between the Indians and the SI, I accused my brother-in-law of harboring those old native peoples’ bones there (I have different stances for different folks.), but he only volunteers in the old-car section of that place, so he didn’t have much to say about that situation.

Arjuna34:

Since you say you’re only interested in hearing what “they” thought about their burials, I’m wondering why you’re asking us all these questions?

And you used to hear all this stuff about the Indians just having used the land, not owned it. Well, if they didn’t own that land where they’re buried, then I guess anything found there after they’ve gone is up for grabs, right? :wink:

And as to rights, well, there’re all these brief cut-and-pasters around here who claim they call the shots on rights, and they say fetuses and corpses are not persons with rights, except. . . So, if fetuses have the right to be born, maybe skeletons have the right to stay put until being reborn. So if you can figure that one you’ve dug up is already reborn, maybe you got a legal treasure there. Sorta like snake skins, moose antlers, whatever.

So don’t you think the Egyptians have had plenty of time to go to their next world?

Those “random people” paid off the cops to protect their bodies before they kicked off. The cops didn’t get any money from the Indians. What kind of scientific study did you have in mind? To prove that some of the decedents’ descendents would object to what you were doing?

Yeah, you have to have an anthropological degree to dig up old skeletons legally.

Well, some of those Indians’ bones were pretty gamey the day they died.

You get a court order, you can dig 'em up. Say you’re tired of nose rings and you need something to fill that piercing.

Ray (I got no bones about it, but a skeleton in every closet.)

15

Jois, after you gave that post a “yuk +” rating, I read it. I thought you meant “yucks +”, so I was expecting some laughs. Yuk.

16

That was funny, Mipsman!

This one is not funny either:

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_650000/650888.stm]Children’s Hearts

Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using the force? - A. Foley

17

I need my old sig back-

Children’s Hearts

Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using the force? - A. Foley