Nobody has called me and my fine wardrobe of jeans and t-shirts (most featuring cartoon characters) judgemental.
But again, you don’t mean “dressing well”. You mean dressing formally.
People have called the pro-formal crowd judgemental, and FaerieBeth,Eve, and MartinHyde have all admitted to judging people based on their clothing.
Nobody has called me shallow- Oh wait, you mean dressing formally again?
There is no hypocrisy or dysjunction here. I would say judging others based on their clothing (again, the pro-formal crowd has admitted this) is shallow. Judging somebody based on their stated beliefs and behaviors is not shallow. I’ve never come across the old saying “Don’t judge a book by reading one of the chapters.”
Again, define badly dressed.
Further, what do you base this statement on? I went to a few different high schools. The haves openly derided the have-nots at all of them.
I repeat, if you mean formally-dressed, say so. Well-dressed is not interchangable with formally-dressed or expensively-dressed.
Again, what are you basing the above statement on?
That’s fine with me. Beyond laws against indecent exposure, I hate the idea of any mandatory dress code. Replacing mandatory formal wear with mandatory casual wear would not IMO be any progress.
I think the objection was MartinHyde’s assumption that most of us had $500 to spend on a formal outfit.
I won’t disagree with you there. But, buying a $500 suit means having $500 and no pressing need more urgent than a suit.
That depends on what economic class you mean. The higher the economic level, the greater the incidence of wearing clothing only once and discarding it.
I’m on a chair, not a horse. It’s not a high chair either.
I want answers on why formal-wear is supposed to better, more polite, more civilized than jeans and a t-shirt.
I didn’t think I would ever say this but…BOLLOCKS Eve!
I am a kindy teacher. I fully expect to finish the day covered in paint, dye or sand etc. In the winter I wear jeans and a long sleeved t-shirt. Now it’s summer I wear t-shirts and 3/4 pants or shorts. This is not a display of my class just practicality. When I leave work and have to pop into a shop I hope people are not so keen to assess my character based on what I wear to work.
I am more then able to dress up when the need arises, it just doesn’t arise on a normal work day. I would hope that my work day attire says more about my job then it does about my character.
The wardrobe isn’t judgmental. The words coming out of the mouths of people who dislike those who dress in anything more formal than jeans are judgmental.
For example:
The judgments here are:
There is no reason to wear formal wear except to be elitist.
The only reason to wear formal wear is to show that you have money.
People who can afford to spend money on a gown are wasteful because they will only wear it once.
I explained in my post why these judgments are shallow and wrong.
With respect, don’t tell me what I mean. I mean “dressing well.” I define that as being above the very casual and ubiquitous jeans and t-shirt look.
More than one person has mentioned UrbanChic’s thread. In it, she did not criticize people for failing to wear formalwear. She criticized people for failing to rise to a certain non-formal standard of dress.
In that thread, UrbanChic didn’t advocate for wearing formal wear; she asked why people didn’t put on presentable casual clothing. Just because some people think there is a minimum standard of dress that is acceptable to wear in public, it does not make them “clothes horses.” Nor does it indicate that they are so obsessed with what others wear that they will nitpick to death every single outfit that every single person wears.
I for one notice when someone is out in public in their slippers, sweatpants, and pajama top. Once someone puts on a minimum “out in public” sort of clothing, I really don’t judge beyond occasionally thinking things like, “You know, Co-Worker X is pretty, but she dresses in a very unflattering manner. That’s too bad.” Or “Cute top, wonder where Y got it. I’d like something like that.”
It was a shallow blanket judgment.
I didn’t once defend them in my post. I agree with parts but not all of what they said.
Everyone judges people based on what others wear. The quality of the judgments varies. They can be as innocuous as “the guy in the expensive suit is probably a lawyer” or “wow, I guess that guy doesn’t care that he’s making other people think he’s weird” or “that’s a really flattering outfit.”
A little more judgmental is “man, that person is a slob!” or “that person must be a clothes horse.”
Very judgmental is “that person is a loser or mentally ill” and “that person just cares about showing off, is wasteful with money, and is an elitist pig.”
I’m not talking about judgments of people based on expressed views. There have been blanket judgments in this thread against all people who like to dress up.
Different people in this thread and in life define this term differently. What I mean to say is, “People in general who judge others to be badly dressed usually do not let the judgee know it.”
All manner of asinine behavior goes on in high schools. I’m talking about adults.
That’s not what I mean, and I never said those terms were interchangable. Please do not put words in my mouth.
My own personal experience. I cited one at the top of my first post. Did you miss that?
It is to the point where any time I wear anything other than jeans and a t-shirt outside of work or parties where more formal dress is expected, I get the question, “Why are you so dressed up?” in a snide tone (family, rude acquaintances I can’t avoid) or in a tone that indicates my choice of clothing is odd (friends). It’s downright universal in my life now.
I know part of this stems from their unwarranted assumption that I’m judging them for being more casually dressed. Part of it is because they feel I am making them look bad, either deliberately or carelessly and without concern for their feelings. One of my sisters actually threw a fit on one occasion, insisting she would not go out to dinner with me until I took off my skirt and blouse and put on jeans because I was making her look bad.
They are judging me solely based on what I’m wearing. I think I should be allowed to wear what I want without it being assumed that I’m a judgmental bitch who doesn’t care about the feelings of others.
Great. But other people in this thread do not feel that way. I’ve quoted some above.
I suspect that my wearing jewelry would land me in the same category as those who like formal wear with those folks: automatically assumed to be shallow and wasteful and elitist and judgmental. Actually, most of my jewelry pieces are either gifts or cheap finds from junk stores. The judgment of me would be shallow and wrong. (Though I don’t expect any of the formal wear haters to come forward and admit they would make that judgment.)
Well, as I said, I didn’t defend any of his remarks. I am discussing the blanket statements made in this thread and the other.
Sure. I think this point is really in response to what Martin Hyde said, and not me.
Sure, among the super-rich it may be common. I dunno. But they constitute a small minority of formal wear wearers. The blanket statements about people discarding formal wear after one occasion were general.
In many cases, because you are either asked to wear it to an occasion, or social convention tells you that the request is implicit. People who don’t make an effort to comply with a host’s request are being jerks. Ditto with all dress codes at places like work, clubs you belong to, etc. It’s polite and civilized to follow rules.
In some cases in the business world, the client will assume that you do not take his case seriously or give him respect if you don’t wear a suit. This was pretty much assumed with clients when I was a lawyer. When the person is your customer, it is a polite, civilized, and smart thing to try to please him. On the other hand, we had a few clients who made it clear that they found us wearing suits intimidating and stuffy and that it gave the impression we were not equals. Likewise, it was polite and civilized and smart to comply and dress down.
As for going out in the general public, in my mind, I am not sure it’s polite to dress up or down. Civilized? Maybe, in the sense that in throughout history of civilization, we have judged people based on their clothing. Maybe that means it’s a part of the definition of civilization to maintain a minimum level of dress, or dress a certain way for certain occasions. And I think it’s reasonable to make certain basic judgments about people based on dress, whether it’s “doesn’t care about looks,” “wears expensive-looking stuff,” “must be a professional going to work,” etc. The harsher and more nitpicky the criticisms get, the less it has to do with feeling politeness and civilization are being violated. At a certain point, it’s just flat-out judgmental. Some of those judgments will be correct, some not. Some of those judgments will indicate that a person has ugly biases; some are just about personal taste.
Nope. By “good” I was referring to Martin Hyde (and others) assertion that the only “good” suit is a 500 dollar suit. That’s just not so. Same goes for formal dresses. “Good” being a stand in for “well-made”
Lovely!
I think a lot of judgments have come from both sides. Apparently, I eat babies* because I like to wear dresses that go down to the floor for occasions that are formal. I, at least, have admitted such assumptions are not correct.
I don’t know that I’d call myself pro-formal. I wear jeans to work, and for events like field day, I have even worn a track suit. I have gone to Wal-Mart and Home Depot in cut-off shorts and a paint covered T-shirt because I’ve run out of paint, and stayed to pick up a few other things since I was there. I have dropped my child off at day care wearing the clothes I had on the day before. The horror.
I wear formal attire to events that call for it, which strangely enough, you said you do as well (although we will just have to disagree on the Symphony).
But I absolutely will not wear their skins afterwards. There’s just no good way to accessorize that for any occasion.
How is judging people based on clothing shallow? It’s anything but. Outfits aren’t randomly distributed to the populace by the governent, they’re delibrately assembled by the individuals that wear them. Thus it’s perfectly rational to judge individuals by how they choose to present themselves.
Agree 100%. I get a bit tired of all of the people that want to ‘express themselves’ through their clothing and are shocked - shocked!- when people make judgments about their character via the same means.
I will agree with **Martin’s ** stance on maturity and that knowing the appropriate attire for the occasion is much more important than owning a closet full of expensive stuff. Frankly, I buy all of my stuff off the rack- sometimes through JC Penney’s, sometimes through (gasp!)Wal-Mart. No one’s ever accused me of looking shoddy. And I regularly have to dress for photo ops and special events.
Dressing up is something you need to learn- I was fortunate enough to have a dress code in HS that called for a sport coat and tie every day. After 15 years of it, I am confused of those that feel like they have a noose around their neck when wearing a tie, same as those people (and they exist!) that feel as though they can only wear open toed shoes. Not for any medical reason, but because they don’t want to confine their feet in any way.
Someone earlier remarked on how much of this anti-dress up sentiment reflects a child’s view of ‘adult’ interactions. Once again, I am forced to agree with **Martin’s ** assessment. There’s a point where you need to look outside yourself. If you don’t want to, you have to accept that a lot of doors will be closed to you.
Sometimes I am really shocked at the kinds of things Dopers can fight about. Like cats in a barrel.
Can’t we all just agree to get along? Look:
Some people don’t like to dress up, but dress cleanly and neatly.
Some people dress like slobs.
Some people dress up, but manage to do it on a budget.
Some people dress up, and spend a lot of money, but they have a lot of money.
Some people dress up just to show off.
Really, what’s the big deal about any of these? Is it really any skin off my back if someone does any of them? I am not rich, I’ve gone to stores and wished I had the money to buy something, but couldn’t…but I make do. And FTR, I like to dress up and don’t like the prevalance of flip-flops and sweatpants, but as someone else said, there is a lot of “casual” before you get to that point!
And you *can * dress up for cheap. And you can dress up and be comfortable. And you can dress casually and still look good! And you can mix-and-match outfits and accessories and wear different stuff and thereby re-use outfits.
My income isn’t tied into my appearance, but I know what you mean. If I’m meeting someone for business reasons, I like to look my best, or at least, reasonably presentable. Dress/skirt/khakis/nice slacks with a nice sweater is sufficient.
That said, however, I am a student. My daily uniform consists of jeans and a sweater. I don’t go out in pajama bottoms like some of my fellow students, but I don’t go out in a dress or skirt every day, either. There’s no reason to. I know people who do dress up every day, and they’re perfectly happy to do so. Bully for both groups. The people in pajama bottoms are fine with that, and the people in suits and skirts are fine with their preferred dress.
However, to paint a whole (very large) group of people as having mental or social problems because they choose to dress in a way that is comfortable and appropriate for them is just unfair and prejudicial.
But the debate (as I see it) isn’t about whether you DO dress up for formal occasions, it’s whether you like it or not. I think most of us will dress up when it is warranted to, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t hate it and yes, even resent the people and situations that force us to feel uncomfortable. But there are some people in this thread who seem to think that if you express any negativity about high fashion at all, you’re either mentally ill or trying to be an outcast on purpose.
And face it, nothing is ever good enough for some people. People like Martin are always going to look down on me even when I do dress up, because my clothes weren’t bought in some fancy tailor’s shop. Trust me, people who dress up on a budget, you’re not fooling anyone. Martin’s disdain for poor people who still try their hardest is belied by his “I think nothing of dropping $500 on a suit” comment. Why try to look nice when those kinds of people will slap you down anyway? Not saying this relates to all the nice dressers in the thread, I know most of you “grade” on intention (even if I find “grading” people by what they wear to be deplorable), but a few of you are just snobs and there’s no way I can possibly live up to your high standards. Why try?
Sometimes there is “hostility” from people who don’t want to, or can’t, spend $500 on some fitted fabric because, as is obvious here, there is hostility directed at them from the people that can and do. Martin Hyde here in particular seems typical in his underlying assumption - the fact that he is able to spend that much money on clothes must mean he is worthy of doing so and therefore anyone who can’t or doesn’t want to is inferior.
This is probably the greatest marketing success of the fashion industry. What other industry can make a person feel socially inadequate for trying to get more than one use from an expensive product? To think, I have been using the same wedding band for 15 years, for shame!
My initial post was not about what I wear, when the circumstances warrant it. It was about why I resist full formal wear, unless it is demanded by the situation. I’m not about to wear sweats even to go to the library. But I might when I’m heading across the street for emergency supplies, and what I wear at home doesn’t matter in the least, I don’t think.
As for the assertations that expensive enough clothing always fits better than cheaper clothing. I must offer a respectful bah humbug. My latest dress suit is a $400 suit, that I had tailored to a better fit (as directed by the tailor, not my choices.) and the shoes that go with it are a pair of $200 shoes. Now, part of the problem, as I said, is that I am obese, but for the shoes, it wouldn’t matter what I weighed: I have large feet compared to most people (Size 14 extra wides) and that severely limits my choice in footwear. Normally this means I’ll get better fitting shoes than the run of the mill, but that doesn’t hold for dress shoes. And before you tell me I should have looked harder for better shoes: these were the only ones I could find, after running through several stores across the state, that fit at all.
I didn’t see this as the crux of the debate at all. Frankly, I can see how someone could not enjoy dressing up, and would rather remain comfortable. No problem. Unfortunately, an increasing number of those that don’t like to dress up simply don’t. And I guess that’s still okay- it’s certainly not hurting me- but it does appear silly, and a bit naive, for these same people to want their way and somehow be immune from the judgments we all make on a daily basis. What’s more, now we’re seeing a turnaround, wherein these same people want to label anyone that does dress **appropriately for the occasion ** (and that’s what this is about, not $500 suits) as shallow, elitist, and a snob. I fully expect someone to chime in about “giving in to the Man” or some such fairly soon.
Pardon me, but if you see no problem in wearing the same thing to “The Ringer” as you do to the London Philharmonic, please excuse me for thinking that you place the same social and aesthetic value on the two. And as you are free to express yourself in whichever manner you choose, I am free to make my own judgment on my assessment of you.
I think, in 1600+ posts, that this is the only thread of mine that’s taken off. Thanks to all of you! wipes away tear
And I knew that there would definitely be a certain level of animosity displayed in this thread, which is why I put it in IMHO; I’m not sure I would want to see the responses if I had posted it in the Pit.
I am also seeing lots of assumptions being made in this thread that surprise me:
All nice clothing is uncomfortable. Today I’m wearing a silk long sleeve shirt and a nice clean pair of jeans that actually fit me (it’s a casual day at work). I feel very comfortable. Normally I’ll wear a nice long sleeve shirt and a nice pair of slacks. Both these items of clothing are comfortable, as are my dress shoes. But to many people, “comfortable” seems to mean “I just rolled out of bed.” I am definitely not advocating, as some seemed to read it, wearing a tuxedo to the grocery store. What I DID say was that wearing pajamas and slippers to the grocery store was inappropriate.
There are only two ways of dressing: Formal wear and like a total freaking slob. Obviously, because I say that one shouldn’t wear flip-flips anywhere but to the beach, that means that I advocate white tie and tails when going to McDonalds. There are definitely degrees of looking nice. For example, I think davenportavenger’s description of her outfit would be fine for most occaisions. I wouldn’t wear it to an office cocktail party, to a business meeting or a wedding, but for a party among friends, it sounds perfectly appropriate. Just because you are criticized for wearing sweats with foodstains on them does not mean you have to whip out an Armani suit. There are, like most things in life, many degrees of gray in looking presentable.
And, I do agree with Martin Hyde on some things. You are definitely judged by the way you dress, and that’s fine if you don’t mind being thought of as a slob. But don’t expect to land that job interview if you come to it in jeans and a T-shirt.
And now I’ll say something that will probably be controversial, since I see people saying that they have no desire to associate with the type of people who judge others on their choice of clothes. On average, I very much suspect that if you went to two gatherings of the same type (say, a cocktail party), and at one there were people in jeans and T-shirts, and at the other were people in nice shirts and pants, that one would find that the nice clothes crew was smarter, better educated, more successful, and in general more interesting to the type of people who frequent the SDMB. Sure, there are stupid shallow people out there who dres nicely, but my guess is that they are far outnumbered by brain donors who are indifferent to the clothes they wear and the image they present.
Personally, I really don’t care how you dress, as long as it’s, here’s the key word, appropriate. You may be more comfortable in pajama bottoms and an old, ratty t-shirt, but don’t wear that to a formal or semi-formal event. Yet there are some people arguing that they shuold be able to, because they don’t have the money to buy a nice suit/dress, they are uncomfortable.
Well, if that’s the case, then don’t go. If the best you can do is jeans and a t-shirt, and you know that everyoen else will be in a shirt and tie, or suit, then by going as dressed down as you are it’s rude. You don’t want to have social events with high clothing standards? Throw your own party and tell everyone to where whatever the Hell they want. But if someone invitse you to their social gathering and they have an expectation of dress, it’s polite to uphld their standard, and rude not to.
And, BTW, if you find formal clothing uncomfortable, then you have ill-fitting clothes (well, except shoes. Those will always suck.) Some people equate a tie with a noose, and feel they are being chocked with a tight collar and piece of cloth wrapped around your neck. Well, if your tie is a noose, loosen it! It’s not that hard. If your collar is too tight, buy a bigger shirt. And again, a suit doesn’t have to be customed tailored and cost $500 to fit well, you just have to try them on in and not buy the first thing you see on the rack.
I don’t dress up often because my lifestyle doesn’t call for it. But if I’m in public for any reason, even if it’s just to go to the grocery store, I’m not going to look like a slob. I may not have on makeup. My hair may be in a ponytail. My jeans, sweater and boots may have come from Wal-mart, but I will not look like I just rolled out of bed after a 4 day drunk, like 50% of the other customers.
However, I find formal wear and the “special” occassions that require the wearing of formal wear, to be pretentious and silly. If I had that type of lifestyle, it would be fun maybe a couple of times a year, like extra Halloweens.
Not that I would wear the same thing to both, but why DO people wear different clothes to the symphony than they do to a movie? What is the point? For instance, to a movie I would probably wear a denim skirt and a nice sweater. Yet, I feel that get-up would be frowned upon at the symphony. Does the music sound better if I wear lace? Do the musicians play better if I’ve dropped fifty bucks on new clothing? When I go to see something, I go for the performance, not to impress other people who might be there. What is so horrible about wearing nice casual clothing to a place like that; it’s not like the lights are on anyway.
And what if their expectation is that you wear a tailored suit bought at an NYC boutique? Why should someone miss out on a good experience (like a symphony) because all they can afford is an off-the-rack suit bought at Monkey Ward’s? It should be the thought that counts, but for some people (Martin) that won’t make a whit of difference.
