[hijack]So flip-flops are gauche? Does that go for the foam things with a plastic band attached or are all thonged sandals unacceptable in nearly all cases? I ask because I love wearing sandals, including thongs, not because they’re confomtable (thongs give me blisters when I’m not careful with my step), but because I like showing off my feet (I think they’re great) at any opportunity I can, and I like seeing the same from others (…I like feet).
Admittedly I live in a medium sized town and not Boston or NYC, so I can only discuss the customs for here.
I’ve seen people wear casual clothing even at night to the symphony and the opera. No one “cuts” them for it. It is clean and presentable casual clothing. I’m not talking a ripped t-shirt over sweatpants with flip flops. Your denim skirt and a nice sweater are what I’m talking about. The last symphony I was at the man next to me wore khakis and a “polo” shirt. Same thing I’ve seen at the movies.
That’s not my experience here.
Most people wear dressier attire. Some people wear “Sunday best” (This is the minimum effort Miss Manners suggests for these events. The point there being even Miss Manners doesn’t insist on evening clothes.)
The most common attire is a suit and tie for a man (can’t say I’ve ever been able to tell how much a suit costs by what it looks like). For women it’s a dressy skirt and top or a cocktail dress.
Then there is a fair percentage of people who do like I do: full formal attire.
Each group decides what dress standard it wants to follow.
No one gets ostracized.
For me, the symphony is one of the very few places where I have a chance to wear a full length evening gown, so I choose to do so.
(Incidentally, the gown I wore last I got for 95% off. It cost me twelve dollars and change. It’s incredibly comfortable requiring no support garments whatsoever. Being floor length it doesn’t even require pantyhose. It’s more comfortable than sweat clothes. The only thing uncomfortable about the entire outfit is the shoes.)
For me, and for most other people who go, choosing to get dressed up is part of the fun.
(I don’t recall anyone in highschool agitating over wanting to wear shorts and a t-shirt to the prom. The people who went all seemed to want to dress up. I know my girlfriends did. If the guys did not, well, a teenage boy understands the relative value of getting to wear shorts and t-shirt versus pissing off his formally gowned girlfriend by attempting to escort her to the prom while wearing shorts and t-shirt.)
Well, I’m another person, and I think UrbanChic is fine, fine dressing woman with more personal style in her Ferragamo wearing foot than most people have in their whole body. In fact, I would do her if I were into that (and, you know, she was).
However, I also have a “vapid, petty, and superficial voice”.
Right now it’s telling me that you’re jealous and sad.
::jealousandsadjealousandsadjealousandsadjealousandsad::
Hey - there it is now.
If that man approached me in the street and was interested in anything more than “What time is it?” I’d fall down on my knees and thank a god I no longer believe in anymore. 
This is one of those threads that makes me wonder what the heck is going on inside the heads of many people. I don’t know how anybody with a straight face can claim that they don’t make judgements about people based on the way they dressed. It’s simply not possible.
Thank you, that’s the point I was making.
In great Doper tradition, we have yet another case of arguing to the extremes.
Going to the supermarket, going to the movies even, jeans and t-shirt/sweatshirt are fine. Going to the movies on a first date, you may want to opt for something better.
Going to a formal dinner - dress formally. Don’t like to dress formally? Don’t accept an invitation to a formal dinner.
Selling services to me in a business setting? Wear a suit (I’m a investment management industry consultant). Don’t want to wear a suit? Fine, but your first impression just put you at a severe disadvantage. If you don’t walk on water, your competitors who wore a suit will most likely get the job. I also promise that when I’m pitching my own work to a potential buyer, I will wear a suit, I will say “Yes” instead of “Yeah”, and I will be polite and respectful to the extreme. If I’m not, then I don’t deserve the opportunity.
Driving the wife to work because you have the joy of telecommuting that day (which, sadly, I haven’t had in a while)? Then when she wakes you up 5 minutes before leaving, whatever clothes are closest are fine.
IMNSHO, I enjoy dressing up…occassionally. I have absolutely no problem pulling out my business suits for appropriate business occassions (about twice a month), and I like wearing my tux once or twice a year (actually have to finally buy a new one this year…darn weight gain). For me, all wool suits, all cotton shirts, and all silk ties are not uncomfortable as long as they fit well. I tend not to spend $500 on a suit, on the other hand I don’t buy the polyester special. I will spend a little on the shirt, as I wear them more often. The most comfortable shoes I can find, however, are a must. Unfortunately, that is one place where I have noticed a definite price/quality relationship. I will spend $150+ on a good pair of dress shoes; then I will wear them into the ground, resole them, repeat and if the uppers are still in good condition, repeat a third time.
A tedious personal anecdote:
When we first moved to the country 6 years ago and I began working from my home, I thought “Weehaa! No more dressing up for life in an office!”
Just sweat pants and shirts in the winter and shorts and T’s in the summer.
As we were dumping money into remodeling etc., I wore the same tatty outfits day in and day out, year in and year out.
Of course, I threw on something clean and respectable when I went out but dressing for life on the farm consisted of anything that didn’t have holes that revealed my arse to the neighbors.
Then I noticed something odd happening.
I looked frumpy all the time and, as a result, I felt frumpy.
The antithesis of sexy and female, if you will.
And I gained 20 pounds.
My husband still went into town 3-5 days a week where he worked with women that put a little effort into their looks.
However, he came home each night to a woman that looked like something the dog had dragged in.
I had a revelation of sorts this summer.
I didn’t enjoy feeling matronly or dowdy.
I like it when my husband leers at me while I’m cooking or compliments me on my appearance.
I want him to think I’m a hottie. 
So I burned all the old rags that I had been schlepping around in, lost weight, and got a decent albeit simple haircut that was stylish.
I still wear jeans and T’s most of the time but they fit properly now and are flattering colors.
Didn’t cost much to upgrade my looks but the results were amazing and I still only take 10 minutes to get ready in the morning and 10 minutes to freshen up at night before he comes home.
I’ve also invested in some rather sexy dresses and tops to wear when we go out for drinks and dinner because really, what’s the point in spending the money on an expensive recent if you look like you just got finished feeding a herd of cows?
That kills the romantic mood as quickly as pouring a glass of ice water on your lap.
Some occasions warrant a little extra effort.
The point that I’m trying to make in my rather rambling fashion is that what you look like affects how you feel about yourself.
I don’t have much to invest in clothes but as other posters have pointed out, you don’t need much to look nice on a day-to-day basis.
You can do it on a very limited budget.
And the very best part of my whole recent fashion do-over is that I feel much better about myself.
My HO on this matter is this:
I dress the way I want people to see me, because yes, it is true that people DO judge people by the way they look. That said, I dress as inconspicuously as possible (i.e. jeans and t-shirt whenever possible), because I don’t care to be valued for the way I dress. If someone sees me in my (regular old) jeans and (regular old) shirt and cares to start a conversation, then I know it’s because they care to have a conversation with me, and not with my ass or my tits. If they don’t care to have a conversation with me because I don’t have on Lucky jeans and a Prada blouse (see, I don’t even know if that shit goes together…), then I’m thankful to have not been bothered. (There are several people at my job that keep a thankful distance from me, and I couldn’t be happier about it) Additionally, I have what I have been told is very beautiful long dark hair. I wear it up in a bun just about every day- I don’t want people checkin’ me out because they think that good hair = piece of ass. I refuse to attract people by my looks, because I don’t ultimately choose others for their looks. It doesn’t mean I won’t give Johnny Depp or a well-dressed man a second glance, but it does mean that ultimately I’d rather have a meaningful conversation (or fuck) with someone who is personally interesting to me.
My $.02 (and p.s. I feel great about myself!)
And regarding hostility toward looking nice? I guess all I can say is that I can ususally tell the difference between someone looking nice and coming by it honestly, and someone trying to get attention with the way they look. Hostility toward the former? No. Toward the latter? Potentially, but I guess I’d have to get to know them and find out if they were as much an actor as they appear to be.
I’m sorry I was away for this thread for so long–there’s so much to respond to here. But I did want to respond to Debaser.
Yeah, we all make semi-concious snap judgements when we first see people. These judgements are based on a lot of factors: race, clothing, height, mood, attractiveness, etc. Often, any one of these judgements becomes a proxy for a judgement about character. I’m not (and as far as I know, no one else is) saying that we don’t make these judgements. What I am saying is that these judgements are shallow and inaccurate.
They are shallow and inaccurate–insofar as they are used as judgements of character–for two reasons. First, the meaning of different articles of clothing changes from subculture to subculture. In your group of friends, khaki pants might mean casual and clean–to another group, they might signify prissy and white-collar. That someone is wearing khaki pants means *nothing * about their character unless you know a lot about the person already. The same goes for mini-skirts, tuxedos, tank-tops, and every other piece of clothing.
Second, the decision of what clothes to wear isn’t entirely within many people’s control. As previously mentioned, even if they have the same set of semiotic values that you have, things such as income can determine what clothes they wear. Those of you that believe that it is possible to dress in what Martin Hyde and the OP consider “nice” clothing, regardless of income, have never been truly poor.
It seems to me to be a regional thing. The mountain west allows jeans and a nice shirt to almost any function. I can wear jeans at work no problem. I’m a programmer. If I wore a suit, I would shock the shit out of everyone.
I think the last time I saw someone in a suit was last summer on jury duty. The two lawyers were in suits.
The judge wore a robe!
On the weekends, I’ll always wear jeans, they may be torn up and full of paint cause I’m working on the house though. If I’m just going to get more paint or car parts, the torn jeans stay on. Dinner with the Wife, or a party at a friends house, I’ll put on jeans that are in good shape and a nice shirt.
I can’t imagine lounging around in pj’s all day, unless I was really, really sick. But that’s just me. I need to feel like I’ve started my day. I also have to take a shower every morning.
I feel somehow unready if I’m not in my standard duds. I suspect everyone feels that way.
About 15 years ago, in a different life, I was in a management position. I had to dress up a bit. I hated it. I never felt comfortable.
I agree that people are judged by what they wear. Where I live, people in suits look out of place. Terribly out of place. Again, it’s a regional thing.
BMalion, I got your post mixed up with those of Necros. My apologies.
I said no such thing. I said I dress formally for important events in the lives of people I care about. As far as I am concerned, there are no other events which call for formal dress.
Stonebow
I am unlikely to attend a perfomance of the London Philharmonic. However, I do consider jeans and a t-shirt to be wholly appropriate for any orchestral, operatic, or other such performances I care to attend. So far in this thread, no one has given an explanation of why formal wear is often expected at such venues other than ‘because.’ and ‘those are the rules.’
Other concert goers are not my company superiors, subordinates, or clients. They can think what ever the hell they want about me. I don’t care. I do not stress this point to hide the fact that I secretly do care. I stress it because I genuinely don’t care.
My music appreciation prof. is also the conductor of our local orchestra and gave tickets to everyone in class (honors class, so only 15 people) to attend the symphony. I was pretty shocked how many people there showed up in jeans and a tshirt. It shows respect to the performers to dress well, especially as they are held to rather high expectations in the clothing department themselves (I’ve been on that side of the stage myself, and even in middle school orchestra I had to dress properly). Don’t like it, fine. Don’t go or go ahead and show up in jeans and a tshirt. I personally think it’s disrespectful but I won’t call you on it.
But there are instances where it is not just fitting into social convention but beneficial to dress “up”, if you will. My husband had interviews for a 5k/year scholarship. He showed up in a suit. The other candidates? Flip flops and shorts. Members of the scholarship panel commented on how nicely dressed he was and how they appreciated that. He got the scholarship. Flip-flop guy went home empty-handed.
I’m just glad that dressing up for flying has gone away. I could never believe that people used to do that when I was younger (as far as I know, the airlines have always been deregulated without need for anyone else to do your booking for you and all but one unprofitable, but any more will throw me into a pit rant) and I really can’t believe it now, when it seems like the TSA will strip-search you if the guy feels like it. Yes, I have a suit (and a servicable tuxedo and a classic navy blue blazer to give me some semi-formal flexibility) but I can’t ever imagine wearing it to fly in, especially if I’m in coach. Give me my pair of jeans, sneakers, and T-shirt with handy front pocket for boarding passes.
And I suppose that’s just fine. But it betrays an incredibly self-centered view of life and human interaction. And really, nothing I can say or do will convince you to care about what other people think of you. I suppose I could appeal to your self-interest, as some other Dopers have done re: interview situations, etc., but that’s not a wholly satisfying answer for me, either.
As The Sausage Creature has said, a lot of it has to do with showing respect, both to the individual people you’re dealing with, and the institutions involved- whether it be the theater, concerts, weddings, funerals, etc. And yes, when people are observed to not show the respect customary to these things, others are likely to think less of them.
BTW- full disclosure- I teach a series of seminars on etiquette. So the idea that society has unwritten rules with potentially dire consequences is something that doesn’t scare me. The bulk of my business has been college students, and ‘upward bound’ programs involving kids from poorer backgrounds. One of the first things I stress has always been that class does not have to be tied to money. All it takes is effort on your part. As someone that grew up poor, I can attest to the fact that this is true 99% of the time. If you want to state that the last 1% isn’t worth it, or won’t accept you in any case, you won’t get any argument from me. But that doesn’t excuse you the rest of the time.
[QUOTE=Stonebow]
And really, nothing I can say or do will convince you to care about what other people think of you. I suppose I could appeal to your self-interest, as some other Dopers have done re: interview situations, etc., but that’s not a wholly satisfying answer for me, either.
When attending the theater, I show my respect through applause and through direct praise to the performers if merited and possible.
Here, I side with the traditionalists. I’ve seen numerous articles complaining that any performance, regardless of quality, gets a standing ovation these days (I believe there have been threads on this). I don’t clap unless the performance was good. I don’t stand unless it was very good. When the performance is truly great, I wait so that I can rave to the performers directly.
But, again, what the other audience members think of me is immaterial. If I think the performers have done badly, I don’t care what they think of me either. If I think they have done well, I care only that they understand how much I liked their work. If they say to each other ‘That strange slob really loved the show.’, that’s fine with me.
I don’t see the point of showing respect for an institution. Musical theater may have given us Sondheim, but it also gave us Andrew Loyd Weber.
I always say please and thank you. I always give up my seat on the bus to the elderly, handicapped etc. I generally attempt to behave in a way that is good and moral. But, to me, many rules of etiquette go past doing what is right to weird and pointless. If I am invited to eat at the house of some one who may not fully understand kashrut, I ask the relevant questions as politely as possible. This person has offered me generosity, to hurt them or give insult is immoral. But, the idea that t-shirts and jeans are somehow improper for the theater, or four star dining makes no sense to me. Formal wear conveys respect why exactly?
My wearing a suit to an event is meaningful to my friends and family precisely because they know how much I dislike it. They see that I have done something I find very unpleasant, in order to make them happy. But, to the orchestra, I’m just another guy in a suit.
Yes, dress clothes can be expensive, but they needn’t be. After having GBS last year and flying out of sizes, I discovered eBay. Two of my nicest scores have been a $190 Maggy London dress for $26 and a Donna Karan black label suit for $76. You don’t have to have a lot of clothing to dress well. French women bear this out. A well-cut black suit - with a skirt & matching pants - can take you anywhere. I bought one from Newport News for I think $60 - you can dress it up or down and wear everything separately. As for “gowns” - the average woman doesn’t need an evening gown. If you do - as with a suit, less is more…get a simple black one and that’s pretty much it.
I know budgets vary, but you can dress very well on very little.
VCNJ~
Well, thank god someone said this. My grandfather never graduated 7th grade, and also never in his adult life ate dinner without a dress shirt and a tie on. No one “appreciated” it; dressing properly was not something he expected praise for.
I would have thought that the fact that we don’t have to dress for dinner at home would make us that more willing to dress appropriately for the few remaining occasions where it’s required. I would not dream of eating in a restaurant with a bar without a tie on (although I should add that I would never eat in a chain restaurant, either). There are enough “casual dining” places that you don’t have to turn every other restaurant into one as well.
Again, to me, jeans and a t-shirt is proper dress.
If they’ll let me in wearing a pai of Levis and a Simpsons t-shirt, formal dress is not truly required. For everything except the weddings etc, of my friends and family, a t-shirt and jeans is dressing appropriately.
Why wouldn’t you dream of it? Unless you’ve got the chef’s table, he’ll never see your clothes. Who are you dressing up for and why?
I won’t be satisfied until we can all be seated in any restaurant wearing whatever we want so long as it satisfies indecent exposure laws and the health code. If you want to wear a top hat and tails to McDonalds, go right ahead. One forced dress code is as bad as another.
Why do you see “casual dining” as such a negative thing?