Why Arabs lose wars...

Sorry I don’t have time to clealry express, but shorlty:

No, I believe that in the classical Islamic world, the theocratic component to governments is exagerated. That is there were degrees of seperation of secular and divine authority.

Yes, frequently.

Or better some large % is.

Not really democratic institutions in any of the larger states – but nota bene the region was dominated by Imperial governments.

Rather my personal analysis is there was a larger secular component, that theocracy, for example, would be a very bad way of understanding effective Ottoman rule, which I think would rather more profitably compared with the Catholic monarchs than the rule of the Popes (despite the Caliphal titles).

There were, to be sure, some peripheral quasi-democratic developments (in Khariji Islam esp.) and outside of the old Core.

My essential point in the end is the theocratic component to the problem I think is very easy to exagerate. The real issue is types of secular power, again IMO. Although I do not wish to conversely underplay the the theocratic issue, but in my personal view (and I recog. this diverges from better learned people so I will take me lumps) is that secular power considerations in the end trump the theology and theological choices were ultimately not the defining reason for autocratic rule.

Stupid hamsters knocked me out earlier and let Collunsbury beat me to the punch. But screw it - I typed this out already ;).

DSeid: Actually theocracies per se were not noticeably prominent in the immediate pre-colonial era. Really they aren’t enormously common in Islamic history period, after a certain point. It’s perhaps a little difficult to define with Islamic states, since religion did intrude heavily into most governments. But states like the Ottoman Empire really weren’t theocratic, despite the claim of Caliphate. If you were to look at the penetration of the Catholic church into the goverment of Spain in the 16th century, it would look very similar ( at least in terms of influence, if not actual structure ) to the “clerical” penetration into the Ottoman burecracy. The difference being that in the Ottoman Sultanate, the ulema were very rather more under the thumb of the Sultan, than Catholic hiearchy in Spain was under the control of the crown. The differences would become more stark with time, but this was more the withering of political Christianity in the west, rather than increasing theocracy in the east. Alawi Morocco, Qajar Persia, Egypt under Muhammed Ali and his successors - All were ultimately run by secular elites, not religious ones.

Even the early Saudi state was a little equivocal, though it, perhaps Libya under the Sanusiyya, and definitely the Sudan under the Mahdists, were the closest to actual pre-colonial theocracies. Even here you’ll note these were “fringe” states. The Sanusiyya were more a de-centralized religious confederacy, rather than an actual authoritarian regime and they occupied the under-populated and economically and geographically insignificant Libyan desert. The Saudi’s at their most “theocratic” were squashed by the secular ruler Muhammed Ali and their rise to dominance didn’t come until a little later in the WW I and post-WW I milieu, before then they were just one of a half-dozen petty principalities ( none of the rest of which had its stark religious overtones ). The Mahdist state, a true authoritarian theocracy ( as much as it could be in that tribally divided area ), was ultimately a short-lived warlord state.

So theocracy was not the standard model of Muslim rule and really hadn’t been since the Abbasid decline. In fact the ulema, both Sunni and ( variably, there were philosophical debates here ) Imani Shi’ite, often had a tendency towards the apolitical. This could and did change from time to time depending on the state and the its stability - The ulema in some areas were more politicized or powerful than in others ( again in the Ottoman state they were very subordinate to the secular government, who appointed the clerics that held any real authority ). But by and large the trend towards political Islam in the modern sense, is, well, modern :wink: - The conservative ‘reformist’ movements that arose, mostly in the 19th century ( some a bit earlier ) in the milieu of Islamic decline and the West’s rise. The Sanusiyya, the Wahhabi, even the Mahdists, can be considered part of this tradition.

Meanwhile the political elites and intelligensia in the Islamic world were going down the track of ‘Islamic modernism’. To quote Lapidus: * The essential principle of medrnism was that the defeat of Muslims at the hands of European powers had revealed their vulnerability, and that the restoration of their political power required them to borrow European military techniques, centralize state power, modernize their economies and provide a modern education for their elites. It meant the medieval forms of Islamic civilization had to be repudiated but not that Islam itself was to be denied. Rather Islam was to reconstructed on its own inherent, but neglected, principles of rationality, ethical activism, and patriotism.

The modernist point of view was first espoused by the Young Ottomans in the 1860s and 1870s. While committed to the principles of Islam, they called upon the Ottoman regime to transform itself into a constituitional government and to promote a new social morality and revived culture based on a simplified Turkish language.*

So here we see the “democratizing” ( a term to use carefully, as it wasn’t quite a movement towards actual democracy in the modern sense at this point ) movement from which Ataturk would later emerge and to which we can credit Turkey’s current secular regime. These movements, of various types, increasingly moving in a secular nationalist direction ( either regional or pan-Arab ), began popping up all over. La Ligue de la Patrie Arabe and the Comite Superior National Arabe in 1905, the Hurriyet Club ( in Damascus ) and Syrian Central Committee ( in Paris, precursor of the Ba’ath I believe ) in 1908, the Egyptian Reform and Nationalist Parties in the same year, etc.

There are a number of reasons why these groups ( Turkey aside ) failed, including not only the intrusion of colonialism, but also factors like the politco-economic state of the Muslim world at the time ( a very long and complex topic ), with a minimal educated middle-class in most regions to exert a greater democratizing effect early on, with the situation basically becoming one of an entrenched western-educated elite ruling mostly powerless masses - i.e. what we see today.

  • Tamerlane

But your response is more learned.

Of note, the secular nationalist parties were often Xian led/dominated in leadership terms in their early years.

In large part, because Christians, as a religious minority, had the most to gain by establishing a secular nationalist state.

I should add, by the way, a little caveat on theocracies in post-strong-Caliphal Islamic history. Several dynasties like that of the Almoravids ( al- Mourabitun ), Almohads ( al-Muwahiddun ), and Safavids to name a few, did originate as religious movements of one sort or another. However generally speaking ( and certainly in all of the above cases ), they ceased being functional theocracies within a generation or two ( or less ), often largely abandoning significant sections of the creed that got them motivated in the first place.

One other pre-colonial theocracy - Yemen under the Qasimi Imans. Again, a backwater and one technically subject to the Ottomans at that ( not happily - Yemen was referred to as ‘The Graveyard of the Turkish Soldier’ ). Not overwhelmingly authoritarian either, because the tribes of North Yemen held then, as they still partially do today, the real power. Think Afghanistan and you get a close approximation.

  • Tamerlane

**
While this is a bit of a hijack, I believe the authority of the Catholic church was one the key factors in the growth of pluralism in the West.

Throught the middle ages, the church was an alternate focus of power in society. The state had a much tougher time becoming authoritarian because it wasn’t all powerful. The friction between church and state also contributed to the growth of institutions that could mediate that conflict. The development of Western legal systems, for example, owes a lot to the existence of the church.

Truth seeker, this would make for a good debate in and of itself. Part of the question is how much of the values that any of these governments espoused were directly justified upon a particular religion’s tenets. (As well as how much power was directly invested within the religious hierarchy.) I maintain my belief that a government based on secular axioms, rather than beholden to any particular religious structure for its justifications, is a modern creation that has not yet fully taken root in the Arab world, in which secular value systems may be percieved as the imposition of Western values. I believe that secular values arose in opposition to the Church and in conjuction with the rise of technological means to challange the Church’s stranglehold on information and its communication. But now I say it with anticipation of absorbing the lumps that Coll was expecting.

Coll, so much for your trepidation at taking a position that "diverges from better learned people "! Thank you both you and Tamerlane for the education.

DSeid, as much of a flag-waver as I am for the positive role of the church in the development of Western Civilization, challenging the assumptions of a group in power is not necessarily productive.

To be effective, a religious group probably needs to be: honest, spiritual, and well-informed. And then they still need to have a plan for confrontation and power to implement it.

The situation with Galileo is a classic example of the church mismanaging what turned out to be a huge political issue that worked against them. What’s lost in all the PBSesque hue-and-cry is that the church was supporting Galileo, they were supporting scientific investigation. They just didn’t want it all suddenly dumped on people in a way that caused them to lose faith.

It might be argued that the situation was so mishandled it would have been better if the church had not funded scientific inquiry at all.

A less well-known but possibly more cogent example is the role the church played in pre-revolutionary France. The government had a court system. So did the church. It was possible to be tried for the same crime in either – or both! This led to two expensive problems: having to try crimes more than once, and having to employ lawyers who were experts in more than one kind of law. This insuperable financial burden is cited as being one of the causes for the economic malaise which led to starvation, and subsequently to revolution.

Hmmm partly. Did Luther have a plan? Well sure, but it was that the Church would just see the wisdom of his points.

Galileo? I may be a victim of PBSification, but my take on it was never such as you’ve described. This was the aftermath of Luther and the Protestant Reformation. The printing press was allowing the public (okay, those who could read) to get information from a variety of nonapproved sources. The Church’s authority was under attack. Galileo was having the case against him made 22 years before his trial. Facts were not to found through science but through knowledge as revealed in the Bible.

The printing press. That was what birthed the modern secular world. Both in science as an approach to knowledge acquisition, and in pluralistic secular values as a basis for society rather than any single religion.

Real jews, if there are any actually left, are just arabs with higher IQs.

If we armed the arabs as we do Israel, the arabs would quickly obliterate Israel.

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is a parasite nation that survives only because of the support of powerful nations in which the media, governments, and business community have been infiltrated and occupied by zionists who often hold dual citizenships and are always jews before any other interest.

Four statements, three serious errors of fact, and one contestable opinion.* Not a very good job, OWD. We’re trying to fight ignorance, here, not promote it.

*The idea that simply giving the Arabs more and better weaponry could allow them to overwhelm Israel is arguable, but hardly proven.)

Why do I get the feeling that OWD has been reading that well-known hoax The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion?

Oooooh. SDMB’s newest ZOG believer… :frowning:

Zev Steinhardt

So-o-o-o-o-o, anywhay, DSeid.

The Galileo story isn’t obscure, but maybe it’s not the best way to make a point. (It was an attempt to segue into Truthseeker’s comment about the Catholic church being pivotal in pluralism.)

The problems with the French legal system being hugely slowed down by multiple courts – one religious – has less irrelevant ballast for the purposes of discussion. The courts there, while perhaps intended in part to put a religious spin on the arbitrary power of the king, et al., more pragmatically just enhanced their power, and helped control their property.

Checks-and-balances tend to work then they are set up intentionally for that purpose: our executive and judicial system, e.g. It seems they would work best when both portions of the equation are intended to be internally rigorous and honest. The external influences, then, are to catch lapses.

Luthur is a special case as he didn’t intend to set up an opposing (balanced, persisting) religious organization but to change or displace the existing Catholic one. Do I have that right, Lutherans?

I see pluralism, checks-and-balances, separation of church and state, etc., as different manifestations of the same public appreciation for open debate.

I’ve to somewhat disagree with this statement. Things weren’t as clear cut as that.

The “scientific” astronomy theories at these times weren’t only : the sun is orbiting around the earth because it’s what is written in the Bible. There were elaborate and complicated theories about the actual movement of planets/sun around the earth to explain the discrepancies, and the theory actually fitted quite well, though not perfectly, with the observations. Similariy, since Galileo’s system didn’t include elliptic orbits, it similarily was quite close to the observed facts but still had discrepancies.

So, it wasn’t a fight between an obvious and blatant truth confirmed by the observations on one sideand obscurantism on the other, but between two astronomical theories, both imperfect at this time. Of course, the church supported the traditionnal explanation, for religious reasons, but it’s wasn’t an obvius “we don’t want to see the truth” case, as it’s often presented.

And by the way, the church had no issue with Galileo publishing his theory, as long as it presented it only as a theory (think about the modern evolution debate), and not as a truth. But he ignored these recommandations and got himself into troubles.

At least TRY to be honest. Looks to me that you prefer ignorance to truth.

I read that years ago. I’m looking at today. My mind hasn’t been dulled by too much mainstream education, although I’ve had plenty.

Truely a major digression, but …

Feb 1916, Draft of Codex 1181, Proceedings Against Galileo Galilei:

In the portrayal of the events presented by Jacob Bronowski, Galileo thought he was safe because he did not present the views as fact but as a speculation. What did him in was a document mentioned by the inquisition

-Jacob Bronowski in The Ascent of Man (Damn straight it was on PBS! :))

As to the courts in France … I understand the message that attempts by religious structures to control the secular structures canbackfire … and visaversa. But I am confused as to what that point was exactly responding to.

Lastly, it must be noted that not all authoritarian governments have produced poor militaries … Rome, the heyday of the Caliphate …

And bets? Does OWD get a warning from mods or just kicked off?

This is the only one to which I am going to reply, the others aren’t worth it. Hey OWD, look at my OP, you’ll see I posted a question to the GQ forum: How was Israel able to win the 1948 war? Back when, ya’ know, the Arabs were far better armed than the Israelis, not to mention they’re armies were much larger. Care to give it a shot?

For everyone else: So, whether we call it “Arab culture”, or “an authoritarian culture that happens to be endemic in the modern Arab world, for whatever reason”, does the article in the OP provide a good framework for understanding how Isreal was able to win the 1948 war? It is something about which I am still very curious.

Just a brief note.

astro surmised:

I actually own an old copy of James Dunnigan’s Dirty Little Secrets, and thumbed through most of it again this summer. I saw nothing in the book itself (which was actually published only shortly after the disintegration of the Soviet Union) which cribs from the above-cited article, but I don’t discount the possibility to revised decisions.

What Dunnigan did say in the version of the book I have is worth mentioning here. He (or rather his source) identifies at least five different types of armies: regular armies (like that of the US, UK, or Israel); police armies (primarily tasked with keeping its own national population in check, like those of many military dictatorships); for-profit armies (like that of Tonga, which makes some good bucks working for the U.N.); another type which escapes me at the moment (perhaps mercenary?); and ceremonial armies.

Ceremonial armies are those designed to look very flashy and imposing for purposes of deterrence and national pride. They often sport some of the most modern and dangerous hardware, the better to scare their neighbors with. But for a host of reasons, ceremonial armies often do not have the ability to perform effectively in combat. To oversimplify: they spend a lot of money on expensive toys which they are unwilling to risk in combat or hard training, and they spend a lot of their training time on the parade ground.

Ceremonial armies by definition spend less money and time on such things as spare parts, maintenance, realistic training, and logistics. Obviously, the line between regular and cerimonial is a matter of degree.

Dunnigan specifically named the various Arab armies up to 1967 as prime examples of all-show, no-go armed forces, which is why a regular force like the IDF could make short work of them (this explains the '56 and '67 wars). But after the Six Day War, Egypt and Syria in particular reworked themselves into regular combat-effective armies. The Yom Kippur War was a very different fight, with the Israelis suffering damaging losses in spite of their undeniable success.

In a way, viewing things from the ceremonial perspective may also help explain why Israel won in '48. A bigger, better armed force may not necessarily win if its soldiers spend more time marching than maneuvering, if they can’t train on the equipment they intend to use in combat, and if its leadership more resembles politicians than generals. Note that this partial explanation doesn’t require any assessment of some “national character.” It’s simply the difference between a big, expensive, paper tiger and a small, expensive, effective armed force.