Why are Americans (and some Canucks) SOOOOO conservative about metric?

Great Debates
121

[QUOTE=Martin Sable]
Valteron or others, can you please tell me some advantages Celsius has over Fahrenheit? The only argument I’ve seen put forth so far is “Zero is freezing, 100 is boiling, and that’s nice and easy to remember if you need to bring in your plants off the balcony before they freeze.” (I find that one weak. You probably have half a dozen passwords of six characters or more that your remember without any problem, so I don’t buy the argument that it’s a challenging burden to remember a single number like 32 F.)
[/QUOTE]
I don’t like Celsius, because zero isn’t very meaningful to me - primarily because several months of the year days above 0C are rare.

If you look at the average winter temperatures in my area for mid December-early March every day the average is given at just about 0C. Since they don’t toss out any of the outliers, that means there are historically just enough heat waves (relatively speaking) to pull up the averages that high because the average daily temperature is really in the teens or twenties F most days. So most days are below 0C in actuality. I’m sure they work out mathamatically, but it’s harder to grasp that while 0C is 32F, -28C is just -20F, and -40C and -40F are the same temperature. They don’t look like they’re being converted at the same ratio (it looks like a difference of 32, then of 8, then of 0!), though they are.

Since more than a quarter of my life is spent below freezing, I prefer the scale that appears to treat temperatures below freezing as more normal.

122

It looks like the UK is going to go on using both systems for a long time to come - the European Union has given up trying to get a date set for the final switch to Km and Km/hr for road distances and speeds and litres for beer and milk :smiley: Link

It seems to have finally dawned on them that they are making the EU look petty for no obvious advantage. All cross border / commercial transactions are already done in metric units. Why should they care if I order a pint rather than a half litre of 6X in my local pub?

123

[QUOTE=RedFury]
Not sure you know this, but my Father taught me long a go a very simple formula for doing the 24 hour time conversion.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand why you need a “conversion”. Intuitive can’t involve conversion… intuitive is just seeing 16:30 and knowing what it is… it’s 16:30. Just like 07:00 is just that… 07:00.

124

That’s the problem - people are experiencing unfamiliarity and are mistakenly identifying it as inherent difficulty - if you measure something in metres, that’s how long it is - it’s not just an awkward stepping stone back to some other measuring scheme that tells you how long it really is.

Unfamiliarity is a significant hurdle for implementation of any scheme, but it’s wrong to make judgements about the actual merits of the scheme based on it.

125

This is where I think Britain does it rather well - a complete mishmash of units does at least mean that most people are familiar with both sets of units.

Road signs use miles and yards, yet our maps have kilometre grid squares, and contours and spot heights in metres. Thus it seems perfectly natural for me to talk of walking 15 miles but ascending a 950-metre hill. That’s just the way it works. People are measured in feet but mountains are measured in metres. Roads are x miles long, but if I’m buying some shelves they’re y centimetres long.

And the temperature - if I see on the forecast that it’ll be 25C then I know it’s T-shirt weather, but if the temperature goes above 32C then the TV and newspapers will be full of talk of temperatures reaching the 90s. If the overnight low dips below 1 or 2C then I’ll probably be scraping frost off the windscreen in the morning.

I’ll buy a pint of beer or milk, but a litre of orange juice. And everyone knows that the latter is slightly less than twice as big as the former. If I’m making a cake I might weigh out 250g of flour; after eating it I might weigh a little more than 11st 9lb.

126

Colophon - please stay in your home - only answer the door to the Metric Police, who will be with you shortly.

127

[QUOTE=Colophon]
This is where I think Britain does it rather well - a complete mishmash of units does at least mean that most people are familiar with both sets of units.
[/QUOTE]

Similarly, I think the United States has reached its own degree of mishmash that’s perfectly fine with us. Science and industry uses metric by and large. At other levels, there are other combinations.

The one key question that the OP still has avoided several times – what is the benefit of a comprehensive change of units?

128

I for one see nothing wrong with having both systems in place, side by side, and I don’t see any real need to mandate some national conversion to metric.

But using Celsius over Fahrenheit? Well, aside from being easier to spell, forget about it, 30 degrees will always be a cold temperature in my book.

129

[QUOTE=acsenray]
The one key question that the OP still has avoided several times – what is the benefit of a comprehensive change of units?
[/QUOTE]

The metric system is simpler and easier - for (apparently) completely subjective values of ‘simple’ and ‘easy.’ The metric system is simpler and easier, but change from the complex system that Americans have gotten used to would be hard - for subjective values of ‘hard’. Total use of the metric system would probably (IMHO) result in fewer mistakes when conversions are called for - and less time making those conversions - but there’s no objective way to put a cost to those sometime conversions and not-yet-made mistakes, so there’s no good way to demonstrate the benefit.

So this is the perfect stuff of debate.

Me, I find it hard to see how 12 inches is better than 300 mm, given that both can be divided up just about as easily. I find it hard to understand how Sacramento being 386 miles from LA is better than it being 621 km from LA. One way, you figure its 386 / 60 mph = 6.4 hours away; the other way, you figure its 621 / 100 kph = 6.2 hours away. Both assumed speeds are slower than you’ll probably be going. Both ways, you should avoid Coalinga if you at all can. :smiley:

Me, I’d rather have half a liter of beer than a pint. A U.S. pint, at least.

130

[QUOTE=acsenray]
Similarly, I think the United States has reached its own degree of mishmash that’s perfectly fine with us. Science and industry uses metric by and large. At other levels, there are other combinations.

The one key question that the OP still has avoided several times – what is the benefit of a comprehensive change of units?
[/QUOTE]

There is no real benefit. The people who need to use metric in the states already do so , everyone else will be just fine with American standard, regardless if they like it or not.

Declan

131

I revel in conservative inertia. I see my role as standing in the path of progress yelling, “Stop!”. I avoid becoming familiar with metric quantities and routinely translate sums of money back into £.s.d. (although inflation has made a mockery of the coins involved, but that would have happened anyway). I don’t want to buy things in metres or kilograms (and the world can’t even agree on how to spell those two). Leave me alone and don’t bug me.

132

[QUOTE=Mk VII]
I revel in conservative inertia. I see my role as standing in the path of progress yelling, “Stop!”. I avoid becoming familiar with metric quantities and routinely translate sums of money back into £.s.d. (although inflation has made a mockery of the coins involved, but that would have happened anyway). I don’t want to buy things in metres or kilograms (and the world can’t even agree on how to spell those two). Leave me alone and don’t bug me.
[/QUOTE]

If you want to be left alone, I suggest you stop standing in the path. :wink:

133

[QUOTE=Civil Guy]
but there’s no objective way to put a cost to those sometime conversions and not-yet-made mistakes, so there’s no good way to demonstrate the benefit.
[/QUOTE]
There is, however, a somewhat objective way to put a cost on converting to metric. Take, for example, the construction industry. We have about 100 years of home construction, tens of millions of homes, built on 8 foot, 16 inch on center methodology. Sheet goods are 8 feet long by 4 feet wide, and fit walls and floors set 16 inches on center perfectly.

Switch us over to metric, then what the hell are we going to do? Do we simply label a 4x8 sheet of drywall 1219x2438mm, and attach it on 406mm centers? Ahhhh, so much easier, I can’t believe we waited this long! Do we re-scale everything to proper metric measures, then double the size of our lumberyards to cover old and new construction, or require trimming of all goods to the old/new size as needed?

Why are we doing this again? So that we can more easily figure out how many 2x4’s it’ll take to get from Schenectady to Poughkeepsie. The reality is that the vast majority of the “difficult” conversions metric saves us from have almost no practical use. The rest are done day in and day out by professionals who are comfortable with the system they’re using today. Maybe 1% are actual difficult conversions, like halving certain recipes, which costs someone a couple of minutes to get right, and which they do only once in a great while. In return for fixing that 1%, we have to throw numerous industries on their ear, costing billions of dollars, and most likely causing way more confusion than you save.

134

Aha! Finally proof we couldn’t trust you Yurapeans and your Metrix.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296703,00.html

All this stuff about standardizing and logical conversions, but you can’t even keep your standards from slowly changing. It’s cosmic proof the universe doesn’t like metric. :wink:

135

[QUOTE=acsenray]
The one key question that the OP still has avoided several times – what is the benefit of a comprehensive change of units?
[/QUOTE]

Just to name a few off the top of my head:

[ul]
[li]The metric system is consistent. A liter is always 1000 cm[sup]3[/sup]. A “gallon” could be Imperial gallon or US gallon; “pound” can be Avoirdupois, Troy, etc. This is especially important on the Internet - e.g. you may find an online article about a car that gets 40mpg; if you don’t notice it’s a British web site, you may not realize it’s 40 miles per Imperial gallon, which is only 33 miles per US gallon.[/li][li]The decimal nature of the metric system makes unit conversion much easier. Converting between mm/cm/m/km is much easier than between inch/ft/mile, for example. [/li][li]We already need metric tools and fasteners (wrenches, hex keys, bolts, etc) to work on a lot of things, like imported machinery. Complete conversion to metric will eliminates the need to maintain two sets of tools and hardware.[/li][li]It reduces the chance of using the incorrect size tool or hardware. For example, it’s easy to tell the difference between 6mm and 8mm bolts; it gets a bit more confusing if it could also be 1/4". Using the wrong size can cause damage.[/li][li]You will be able to exchange technical documents with other countries without needing to do conversions. That includes things like recipes from a European web site. [/li][li]Even non-technical writing contain units (people’s height, weather, driving distance, etc). Use of metric will allow you to understand writing from other countries better, and make your writing more accessible to foreigners. [/li][li]If your product uses metric sizes and hardware, it will be more attractive to overseas customers.[/li][li]Conversion between volume and mass is easier because conversion factor is 1 kg/liter for the most common material around (water). Even for other materials, it’s easy to use 1 then use the ratio for correction (e.g. a liter of water is 1kg; a liter of gasoline, with a density of 0.74 g/cm[sup]3[/sup], is 0.74 kg.)[/li][/ul]

136

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
There is, however, a somewhat objective way to put a cost on converting to metric. Take, for example, the construction industry. We have about 100 years of home construction, tens of millions of homes, built on 8 foot, 16 inch on center methodology. Sheet goods are 8 feet long by 4 feet wide, and fit walls and floors set 16 inches on center perfectly…
[/QUOTE]

Ain’t no perfection in this world. Nor many rooms built with inner dimensions that are even multiples of 4 feet, I suspect. As may be, 'tis true that the Canadians have not stopped buying American lumber, nor insisted that the only lumber they’ll sell us is in even metric multiples.

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
…Why are we doing this again?..
[/QUOTE]

Because the metric system is simpler and easier, and as time goes by, more and more people will figure that out and will be willing to stop worrying about whether a 29-1/2" dresser will fit next to a 45" wardrobe on a wall that’s 6’-9" wide. No, not especially hard to figure, but not as easy as comparing (750 + 1145) mm against 1980 mm.

Weird U.S. coversions come up when we least expect them, I’ve found. As from another example I had to deal with once, how many quarts of oil are needed to mix with 5 gallons of gas at 50 to 1 (for an outboard motor)? In metric, the answer is simple (20 liters / 50 = 0.4 liters), and there’s no need to look around for the jug that we marked off specially for doing this.

Sure, only comes up once in awhile. Now where’s that damned jug?

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
…we have to throw numerous industries on their ear, costing billions of dollars, and most likely causing way more confusion than you save.
[/QUOTE]

We’re Americans. We like confusion. And I’m not concerned so much about industry, which will doubtless make its products whatever size sells the best, regardless of how those products are labeled.

137

[QUOTE=scr4]
Just to name a few off the top of my head:

[list]
[li]The metric system is consistent. A liter is always 1000 cm[sup]3[/sup]. A “gallon” could be Imperial gallon or US gallon; “pound” can be Avoirdupois, Troy, etc. This is especially important on the Internet - e.g. you may find an online article about a car that gets 40mpg; if you don’t notice it’s a British web site, you may not realize it’s 40 miles per Imperial gallon, which is only 33 miles per US gallon.[/li][/QUOTE]
Actually, I’m sure this is at least partly responsible for the quite common notion that American cars are all ‘gas guzzlers’ - I hear people this side of the pond saying they get 40 to the gallon and think ‘That’s not great, but it’s not terrible’ - I hear Americans saying they get 33 to the gallon and I think it’s shockingly poor.

138

[QUOTE=Ale]
I really don´t understand this argument, Celsius is a lower resolution model?, you know you can have as much resolution as you like, don´t you?, I mean nobody is going to snatch you away in the middle of night because you dared to wisper “21.4 Celsius” on someone´s ear (the same for Fahrenheit)
[/QUOTE]

And is that extra .8 degrees of precision really worth having anyway? Damn, this stupid metric thermostat only lets me choose 20C or 21C, but I want my temperature exactly at 69F… I’m an American dammit, I shouldn’t have to accept 68F or 69.8F if I want exactly 69. My Imperial DNA is sensitive to a temperature gradient of 0.8F.

This makes me wonder if metric thermostats (like for climate control) are graded in decimals… if so, this would in fact give you MORE precision than Fahrenheit.

139

It’s not exactly true to state that Canadians in general observe the metric system in everything. Very few Canadians think of a person as ‘160 cm tall’. You’ll probably hear someone ask ‘How tall is that really?’

Other examples: fuel efficiency in miles per gallon (though speed is invariably kilometers per hour except by the very old, and the fuel is sold in liters); cooking measurements in teaspoons, tablespoons, and cups; and in construction (where everything seems to come in imperial measurements).

140

[QUOTE=Brain Wreck]
This makes me wonder if metric thermostats (like for climate control) are graded in decimals… if so, this would in fact give you MORE precision than Fahrenheit.
[/QUOTE]
Some are - the one in my previous car was graded in half degrees (C) in the middle of its range, but in any case, I suspect that in a great many cases, the device simply isn’t accurate to within one degree anyway - and it’s often more a case of ‘if you feel cold, turn it up until you don’t feel cold anymore’