I said the patronizing tone, and meant my own in relating the story. That was my point. Not the guy from Georgia, he was a great guy, friendly enough to make conversation to people he knew were far from home.
Thats why I said that comment about the “Little newfie” too… so often we go somewhere, people and places don’t meet our expectations, and we end up trivilizing it into some nice anecdote where “the local gentry,their odd habits, and general ignorance” becomes the focal point. Yes, I originally talked about ignorance, but I wanted to show it’s reflexive… I was just as ignorant saying the things I did, and the way I said them. I think this is why, too, Americans might be maligned and remembered in a bad light when they travel abroad. “Look Martha! The natives! They’re so cute!”
Related story… friends of my family travelled here from England; I hold nothing against them now or since, let me be clear: The daughter of the family commented on lamps which were mounted in the walls and turned on my a switch located at the base of the lamp. “Oh,” said she, “How primitive.” Now… apart from missing the point myself, its kind of hard not to offer a person a magnifying glass or petri dish… Why not take a scraping of the locals while you’re at it, see if they have DNA like your own, or not. Am I over-reacting? No! One criticism from me about a Navy man not knowing his geography, and I’m told I’m bashing Americans in general and Georgians in particular, and reading too much into it. Of course, your hackles are raised a little. Thats what happens when something you’re proud of is put into question.
All in all, a little common courtesy would solve everyone’s troubles. Why does it revert to a question which demands “good/better/best” or “right/wrong”, in terms of nations and styles? So the US has one type of medicare system, canada has another and Britian yet another, all doing the job in a different way. So americans are loud and obnoxious (apparently) and the French just plain rude. Japan’s trying to get rid of the consitution that was handed to them following WW2! “HOW DARE THEY… its based on perfection!” Yeah, but not for the Japanese.
I might be a trigger happy american basher, but I have no reason to be. IMHO, though, its better than being just “trigger happy”.
On the bounce,
Jai Pey
===
James Parsons
IANBABAIBOTID
“…because the only people for me are the MAD ones…” - J Kerouac
I certainly was not excluding Americans from this reference. I just think it’s a mistake to assume that Americans have a higher percentage of rude people, per capita than other nations. I also think that all people have a skewed perception. If you only look at the Americans who travel abroad, or you see on the news, or meet at Disney World, you’re not looking at a broad representative cross section. Even worse, don’t look at the posters on this board as evidence of American insensitivity. The sample is representative of a very tiny portion of the total population and not without bias.
First, the English do not necessarily find it rude to eat pizza with your hands. I’ve seen a lot of English citizens eat pizza with their hands.
Second, believe it or not, eating pizza with our hands is a cultural norm in the U.S… It’s a part of who we are, just because you are in a different culture, doesn’t mean you abandon your own. Though it’s pefectly acceptable, even if there were some cultural barrier to eating pizza with your hands in the U.K., I agree with your friends - the English culture should be tolerant of the American pizza eating culture.
Let’s turn this one on it’s ear. In Malaysia, it’s very common to eat with your hands; things that most Americans and English wouldn’t even consider trying to pick up with our fingers. They also, sometimes use a banana leaf instead of a plate. A friend of mine from Malaysia visited once and we went out to dinner. He never touched his fork. He ate the whole meal with his fingers. Did he get some peculiar looks from the other patrons? Yeah. Did I think it was rude? No way. Respect other peoples cultures - no matter where you or they are.
Now when I go to another culture and eat the foods of that culture, I try to eat it in the same way as the natives. To me this is part of the cultural experience. However, I’ve seen Americans and Europeans alike, who’ve refused to try certain Japanese foods or decided to eat Japanese or Chinese with a fork. Are these people rude? No. Perhaps they’re missing an important piece of life, but they’re not rude.
Finally, on Americans eating at Burger King or Pizza Hut… I never eat at McDonalds! However, after four weeks in Japan once, I was growing tired of sushimi and tempura so I broke down and went to a local McDonalds… Alas, I was disappointed. They don’t advertise “all beef” in Japanese McDonalds’ and with good reason. I’m not sure what animal their burgers came from, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t bovine. But that’s not my point. My point is, if you spend a long time in a country with radically different quisine, sometimes you crave something a little more familiar. There’s nothing wrong with that.
By the way, the most interesting and fun times I’ve had eating in another country have been in Japan. I’ve had formal Japanese style where you pick your fish and it’s still alive as you eat him. I’ve had Shabu Shabu, where you cook your food in a boiling pot of broth as you eat. And I’ve had Yakitori in a little Yakitori bar under the railway with a bunch of Japanese locals who couldn’t speak english and I couln’t speak Japanese, yet somehow we became fast friends… That’s life!!!
Daring to risk my tender hide here, I would like to express an actual opinion achieved through observation concerning your comment which pertained to NightGirl’s comment about liking English Black People.
There is a big difference. They speak better, tend not to harp on racial exaggerations, actually – facial expression-wise – do not look like they are spoiling for a fight and they do not seem all that interested in acquiring often ludicrous African ‘names’ or identifying heavily with African traditions or dress. (Kwanzaa comes to mind – that Black oriented, suddenly adopted holiday that no one had ever heard of until a few years ago.)
They look, act, speak and seem to be of the average temperament of most English people I have met. I don’t think that English Black people are responsible for over 50% of the crime in England like American Black people are in the States. Their whole attitude seems MUCH better. They are much more pleasant to be around in general.
Rainbowcsr, it’s good to see that you can make wide-sweeping (and basically false) generalizations about U.S. citizens as easily as you can dismiss non-U.S. peoples.
I don’t know any black Americans who always look like they’re spoiling for a fight. Perhaps the ones you know are just reacting to you?
Well, since it was quite deliberately invented (and no one does anything to hide the fact that it was created deliberately), I am not sure what your point is.
As to the contention that they (black Britons) “speak better,” I would suggest that you try to watch East Enders the next time it hits your local PBS channel and compare the English of the black actors to that of James Earl Jones. The point being that people speak appropriately to the context in which they live or work. I don’t know any blacks who speak more poorly than any whites in comparable social situations.
I notice that you identify African names as ridiculous. Interesting comment.
Basically, I would gather from your posts that you are vaingloriously proud to be a Yank, but only if you get to define Yanks as white people with whom you are comfortable.
That’s pretty sad.
i AM looking at that “broad representative cross section” and just to demonstrate how “true” it is i take examples from this “tiny” thread. true that there are not many represetatives here, but of those who are none of the non americans can be included into your “insensitivity group”, only the americans can be included there(notice again that you said majority, meaning of course that not all americans in this thread should be included into this “insensitive group”, just the majority).
ok, another example because one can always find one in support of ones own statements. this is to counter yours.
its easter day, a day we call “red”(taken from the calendar where holidays are marked in red) here in iceland. every store, shop, restaurant and gas station are closed. i was terribly hungry, hoping for one open shop somewhere, naturally i wasnt supposed to find any, but i did. a small kebab house downtown. for the owners of that fast food house easter didnt have a meaning. the day wasnt in their religion so they were working just like it was a normal day. my stomach was saved that day.
anyway, point being that by doing this they were bringing a portion of their culture into iceland, no harm done there. but by doing this they were breaking an icelandic custom, insulting unwritten laws of buissness and etiquette. the other places didnt have to be closed, the employees can on the other hand refuse to work. but instead of going through the trouble they just simply close their shops. over the years the days where the “closed” sign hangs in the window are getting fewer, now its just christmas day and easter day, and easter day is going to fall next. you could call it progress or something like that, but it isnt needed.
Holy Cow Rainbowcsr! Every time your fingers touch the keyboard nothing but garbage rolls out…
Perhaps in your biased view. Americans always think the Brits speak better. It must be the accent. As to the way blacks speak in the U.S., you’re way off the mark. Sure there are predominantly black subcultures that have a different dialect and in some cases, possibly an English variant. It’s just different. [sarcasm] Many blacks talk just as good as white people. [/sarcasm] Likewise, many white people living in the same aforementioned subculture speak just like their black counterparts. BTW, the way you talk is not indicative of the way you think. I work with a young black woman who has the characteristic black ghetto language, yet she is a highly skilled technologist and freakin’ brilliant, by my standards.
Not true. I knew a Brittish black man who painted American blacks with the same mile-wide paintbrush that you’re trying to use. See my earlier reference.
It’s all that watermelon and chitlins - it brings out the worst in people… You need to get away from your TV set and experience real life.
These people are simply rediscovering their cultural heritage - a heritage that was stolen from them by unthinking, greedy, soul-less, users. BTW, I’ve seen Brittish blacks in traditional African dress, too.
Did you get that statistic from the Klan web site? That’s rubbish!
I will grant you that a larger number of blacks are involved in crime in the U.S. than in the U.K… There are a number of reasons for this (1) There are simply a lot more blacks in the U.S… (2) Due to past cultural oppression and lingering economic pressures, some blacks in the U.S. find themselves in more desparate situations and in a more violent environment. (3) There’s also an element of seeing what we expect to see. Blacks are still more persecuted and less trusted in this country. Blacks are often considered guilty until proven innocent.
I don’t know anything about you and your experience, but I submit that unless you’ve lived for a couple of years in the U.S. and spent a lot of time with a lot of individuals, there’s no way you could truely know. You could guess; you could empathize; but you couldn’t know.
That sentence was a bit confusing to me, but I think you were trying to say or imply that the only people in this thread who have demonstrated cultural insensitivity have been Americans. If that is what you’re saying, then I disagree. If that isn’t what you’re saying then I apologize.
To answer the OT here…
Why are Americans so disliked worldwide?
-because most people living abroad only have experience dealing with American tourists.
(and then to elaborate)
-tourists seem to act like, well, jerks. i’m not just referring to tourists going abroad, or american tourists here, but tourists in general. as someone who lived in an (american) region with a great deal of tourists, that it seems that the huge majority of tourists are, well, assholes. i’m not sure whether it’s that most people who become tourists are assholes to begin with, or that theres some sort of change that overcomes normally nice people when they decide to go somewhere on holiday, but the end result is about the same.
In general i’ve found that it’s not americans who are disliked worldwide, but tourists. if the only americans that you have contact with are tourists…well it’s an easy generalization to make.
JoeyBlades, you bring up some valid points about cultural differences. However, I disagree to a certain extent. I was not put out by eating pizza with a fork and knife (whether it’s acceptable or not in England I don’t know. I was led to believe it was not by my teacher). And I resumed eating pizza with my hands when I came back to the US. I never “abandoned” my culture.
Look at it this way- If I went to a stranger’s house, I would be polite. I would not plop down on his couch, prop my feet on the table and eat food. I do that in my own home, but I don’t presume that my house rules are someone elses. When you visit another culture, you are a guest. You represent your country, for better or worse. Your friend who ate with his hands was probably thought rude by the Americans sitting in the restaraunt (and I am not saying they are right). Isn’t that the point of this thread? I bet a lot of people formed negative opinions about your friend and his culture (once again, I am not saying that is right). The same holds true for Americans traveling abroad. If we want to raise other culture’s repect for us, we need to attempt to act as guests in other countries, not tourists at Disney Land.
Another point- some cultures do not tip. Are you saying that if people from these cultures come to the United States, they should stick to what their culture dictates? Or should they find out about our culture’s mores and act acordingly? I know how a waitress would answer.
Great points about people who don’t try to learn about other cultures. They are missing out on some great experiences. BTW, if I was ever lucky enough to venture to Japan, I would try to use chop sticks- only if I was poor at using them would I ask for a fork. I would want to respect the culture.
And I hate Pizza Hut! I wanted to go to a pub and drink beer. (Of course I did; I was 16)
Dizzy
You people have been holding me back long enough! I’m going to clown college!
If you are ever lucky enough to visit Japan, I recommend you learn to use chop sticks before you go. Most resturants in Japan don’t have forks to give you. I had a friend who learned this the hard way. He really struggled, at first. He did finally find a resturant that had a fork; about halfway though our 4 week stay. He stole the fork and carried it with him everywhere!
Learning to use chop sticks is really pretty easy. Many Chinese resturants in the U.S. have them upon request. Most of the cheap ones have instructions on the packaging. Better yet, ask your waiter/waitress for a demonstration - they are usually more than happy to give you a quick lesson. I always eat Chinese, Japanese, Tai, Korean, etc. with chop sticks if they are available. That way I keep in practice.
Also, you wrote:
Tipping is not an accepted practice in Japan. If you go to Japan, don’t tip. It could be considered offensive. It’s not uncommon for Japanese business persons to NOT tip when in the U.S… It depends on the cultural sensitivity of the individual and what he or she knows about our culture. Some Japanese will ignore their own cultural bias and tip. For some, the thought would never even occur to them. Hopefully most U.S. service people in the U.S. are aware of these kinds of cultural differences and will be understanding.
A Japanese friend once asked me privately and quietly, “Why do you have to bribe people in America to do their job?” At first I thought he was talking about the police or politicians… It was only later in the conversation that it became clear to me that he was talking about tipping! That was a long conversation, let me tell you. How do you explain why we supplement the income of our waitperson’s with tips instead of just paying more for the meal so that they can get an appropriate salary in the first place???
Has anyone raised the question of why Americans and/or American culture are sometimes overly admired worldwide? It can almost be embarrassing as an American to suddenly find yourself dispelling positive myths about one’s own country. Here in Germany, American culture is definitely “in” and has been for quite a while. It is more common to see young people wearing jerseys, hats, etc. of American sports teams (usually and annoyingly the Yankees and – even today, despite their fall which hasn’t seemed to come to attention of Europe’s youth – the Bulls.) Many shops, locally owned for a completely German market, are given English and often absurd names such as “Mr. and Lady Jeans” or “Miss Liberty” (which has about 25 U.S. flags adorning its shop window and outside walls, which should be seen as abuse for advertising even (or especially) by those who worship the flag.
Certainly, many Americans would be flattered at this treatment, but I think it is actually more likely to be based on an overpositive and undifferentiated look at the country most of these people have never seen themselves.
It might also be interesting to consider that about 80-90% of all films shown here are the same Hollywood movies you can see in the States (although, annoyingly enough, almost always dubbed.) Television here is also very America-oriented. There is even a late night talk show that is not only patterned after Letterman, but actually has the talk show host copying some of his gags (such as throwing things through a “window” with sound effects.)
Some of this may of course be Germany-specific, possibly a result of the country’s rejection of its own traditions and past, looking for a role model to emulate.
In any case, I thought this might add another aspect to the discussion.
Otherwise, it is true that tourists of all origins can sometimes be rude and disruptive to the local life and traditions. I have noticed that American, German and British tourists all have simular reputations for being loud and pushy. At the same time, I have also noticed that some groups of Americans at times conduct a peculiar sort of loud conversation that can draw attraction to themselves. (A kind of overconfident broadcasting tone as if they are addressing everyone within earshot) This isn’t to say that there aren’t thousands of “good” tourists among all nationalities, in fact it is likely that the few rude ones draw attention away from the majority of respectful tourists.
I, um…, can’t imagine why late night German TV would want something as lame as a Letterman knock-off when there is Tutti-Frutti(sp?) to watch! Talk about your cultural differences!
Sue from El Paso
Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.
We’re getting REALLY off-topic here but everytime I go to Britain & Ireland I wonder why they get every stupid American TV show you can think of while we are stuck with endless Are You Being Served reruns. I want Father Ted! I want Rab C. Nesbitt! I especially want Ali G., without question the funniest thing I’ve seen in years.
TomH, MattK, etc., how can you possibly laugh at Friends when you have stuff like this over there???
One fun part of living in Belgium was that neither the Flemings nor the Walloons would permit a Yank film to be dubbed into the other’s language, so we saw undubbed films with Dutch and French subtitles.
I think tipping is a great example of the need to respect (or at the very least to consider) the culture you’re travelling within. Here in Australia our waiters/waitresses get paid a much-higher rate than their US counterparts. In fact, it’s accross the board for workers. Now this is NOT an attack on US practice, for I’m not in a position to say one is better than the other.
The real point is that here in Oz we’ve been socially conditioned to NOT tip (unless the service is magnificent) whereas in the US it’s expected. When travelling through the US I frequently had to remind myself to add for tips and - much to my chagrin - occasionally forgot, duping some poor person out of money.
Anyway my point, once I stop meandering, is if we don’t at least make an effort to work within the forms of another country (fit within their context so to speak) we will offend.
I’m sure one or two people cursed the Australian who walked out without tipping and even though my absent-mindedness was innocent, whose to say their name-calling isn’t valid? After all I’m in their country; surely I should make an effort to conform to their values and traditions.
And no, I don’t have to discard my values, beliefs etc. to do so.
[quote]
(1) There are simply a lot more blacks in the U.S… [/QOUTE]
doesnt matter if you are using percentages…
why is that? (violent environment = cultural oppression + economic pressure)
again, why is that?
whats so different about em anyway, biologically speaking a small part of black DNA is different from white DNA like my hair DNA is propably different from yours.
this is definately one thing i dont like about america(its enough to be “often considered” if you know what i mean).
i havent spent alot of time with any individual u.s, resident (well, one kid that was pretty screwed up doesnt count), but i cant see how that matters as i am not making any judgement calls against any induvidual person. i have on the other hand had experiance with american ads, american films, american food and american culture as exported to another country and thats what i hate! not the individuals exporting it, but why and how they are exporting it.
ill grant you that the sentance is a bit confusing, but yes, this is what im saying. you disagree? give me examples why you disagree? if for some reason i overlooked an insensitive remark from a non-american i am sorry i said what i did, but perhaps i havent overlooked anything.
not true, we are not talking about any indivudual tourist, or a group of tourists one has stumbled into. all of the american tourists i have talked to we kind of nice (when you consider what is “polite” in america, not here). but they were pleasant company and fun to talk to. i havent met that many though so i really cant say, i am not one to form an opinion from one encounter. what we are talking about is more than just a couple of tourists, remember that people from outside of america also come as tourists TO america. the reputation america has as hosts isnt that good, i imagine its similar to the reputation american tourists have. then there are the cultural influences exported (see earlier in this post) like coke and mcd.
combined with what else people “know” about america im not surprised they reach this “general” conclusion.
Dizzy, thank you again for a wonderful post. you deserve kredit for it.
one thing i would like to know if is true. do americans dislike dubbed or labled(something like that) films?
something american tourist dont do(the majority of them anyway, of course there are exeptions)and are disliked because of it.
So which is it, o profound one? First you claim that you are not the sort to form an opinion on too little information and admit that you have too little contact, yourself.
Then you make a broad declaration of exactly that idea (based on your comparative ignorance, of course).
bj0rn, you may not like to admit it to yourself and you certainly play back-and-forth word games to cover it up, but you really do have a wide anti-American streak in you.
Blacks in the U.S. have a long history of oppression and injustice, leading to socio-economic repression for their sub culture. It started with the practice of slavery, which I’m sure you are fully aware. Unfortunately, the cycle of oppression is a lot like the cycle of child abuse… you’re very likely to ‘inherit’ it from your parents. Education is the only cure and it only applies to those who want to learn. A proper discussion of this phenomenon would fill another thread and is off topic for this one…
This is precisely my point. You see only what Hollywood and McDonalds want you to see. It’s a mistake to look at American advertisements, movies, or even US news reports and think that these are representative of our entire culture. They are not even representative of the entire California culture that they typically originate from.
On the subject of advertisements; again, I don’t know how it is in Iceland, but I watched the advertising of US products in the UK. I can say unequivocally that the adds run in the UK were tailored for that audience. They were designed to play on American stereotypes (true, we often use stereotypes in our domestic advertising). Nevertheless, to look at a commercial in the UK for a US product, using US actors, purporting to represent some slice of US culture, was usually way off the mark.
As for American food… Most of what gets exported is the high volume, least common denomenator food chains. I personally don’t eat at McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, or KFC. Neither do most of the people I know. There are much better places to get hamburgers, pizzas, Mexican, and chicken. Plus there are a lot of other more typical American foods that never get exported, simply because they don’t have large retails chains driving them.
Here’s some random quotes that I think fall into that category. I realize that some of these are possibly out of context, over generalizing, and usually written with good intentions… but then that’s the way it often is with insensitive remarks:
… OK, I got tired after that. There’s a few more, but I decided to save bandwidth. When you look down that list, the thing that stands out is that there have been a lot of sweeping generalizations about the way Americans are, based on limited exposure to a few bad apples. Having been around, I can attest that the U.S. does not have a monopoly on jerks. I do agree that there seems to be a few more derogatory remarks coming from Americans in this thread than non Americans, but I don’t think that is indicative of anything more than this topic may attract obnoxious and/or defensive Americans. Trying to read more into it than that is what I mean when I talk about being insitive to the American culture in total.
Think of it this way, how would you like it if I assumed you were blonde, backward, ignorant, alcoholic, anti-social, and anti-semitic - just because I’ve heard that stereotype of Icelandic people and may have met someone from Iceland that lived up to portions of that stereotype? You would have every right to be offended…
Well, this post is getting out of hand, but in the interest of fairness, I scanned my own posts in this thread, looking for examples of less-than favorable characterizations of other peoples and found a few:
Talk about your cultural differences!