It seems to me this actually happens more with Italian names than with others. Granted, we Americans tend to have a hard time with foreign names, but with all the experience of Italian immigration in the early XX century, you’d think we’d have a better handle on how to pronounce the names. After all, Italian is not that difficult to pronounce.
Case in point: The Schiavo case. I had a semester of Italian–just one–in college, so every time I hear it pronounced ‘shy-vo’ it’s like nails on chalkboard. An Italian would say something like, ‘Skyah-vo’.
Another case in point: Years ago, there was the Frustaci family–I’m almost sure that name was Italian, and should be pronounced, ‘fruh-statch-ee’, but the family pronounced it ‘froostazee’. Why? Why on earth?
And so on and so on. I’ve heard Tagliani pronounced ‘tag-lee-ani’; it should be roughly ‘talyahni’; I’m sure there are many, many more examples.
Because the name has become anglicized within the family. I pronounce my Polish surname with an English pronunciation, not the correct Polish one. Let’s suppose my last name was “Kowalski.” Even though I know it’s actually pronounced “Koh-VAHL-skee,” I choose to pronounce it “Koh-WALL-ski,” because it’s simply easier that way. Nine out of ten people pronounce it the English way, so rather than correct everybody, it’s just easier on all parties involved to simply anglicize the name.
This happens with names of all nationalities—I don’t even think that Italian that gets a disproportionate amount of anglicization heaped upon it. How many German, Slavic, Spanish, Hungarian, etc., names get pronounced like in the original language?
It’s impossible for the owner of a name to mispronounce his own name. Whatever pronunciation that person uses is the correct pronunciation.
The fact that the pronunciation is not the “official” pronunciation according the the rules of the language is completely irrelevant. Personal usage always trumps. (Yes, it may be spelled “Luxury-Yacht,” but if the person wishes, it is officially pronounced “Throatwarbler Mangrove”).
As for why they chose to deviate from the standard pronunciation, it’s nobody’s business but their own.
They do get anglicized, but not in the same way from what I’ve seen, and not to the same extent. Kowalski pronounced the way pulykamell does is but a step away from the Polish pronunciation s/he cited.
RealityChuck, I’ll rephrase my question to, why is it that the pronunciation of Italian American names, even by their owners, seems to have diverged so far from the way they would be pronounce in Italian.
One answer, beyond Anglicization, might be that Italian is strongly dialectalized. What one learns as “Italian” is classic Tuscan dialect, which has become the “Standard American” or “Queen’ English” for Italian. But a Venetian, a Genoese, or a Sicilian will sound nothing like the “Standard Italian” Tuscan.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. “Tagliani” pronounced as “tag-lee-AH-nee” is obviously following English rules. Same with the pronunciation of “Schiavo.” My Polish example was an easy one, in which the English and Polish pronunciations differ by a letter. Try “Szczygiel,” pronounced as “SHCHIH-gyehw” in Polish, but “SIH-gee-ul” by my former neighbor. Or Laszlo Moholy-Nagy, whose last name is pronounced as “MOE-hoy NAWDGE” in his native Hungarian, but opted for “Muh-HOE-lee NAWDGE” when he moved to America.
That’s how the names look in English, so that’s how some families choose to pronounce them.
That is an extreme opinion. My opinion is that one does not own one’s name and that most names have standard pronunciations just like other words. If you go around writing your name “Bill” but insist on pronouncing it “Jim”, that’s wrong.
There’s no authority on standard pronunciation of any words, let alone names, so standards are de facto and can change with time - yet they exist. Regarding the OP, many Italian names have acquired standardized American pronunciations. Remember Joey “Butta-fewco”? If you went to New Jersey and started calling people “Butta-foo-oh-co”, they’d look at you funny, because you would be violating the de facto standard. Similarly, in California, native speakers of English pronounce the place names “San Pedro” as “San Pee-dro”, “San Jose” as “Sanozay”, and “San Rafael” as “San Rafel”. It isn’t Spanish, but it’s the standard American pronunciation. If you pronounce them the Spanish way, people will think you’re Mexican or a tourist who took high-school Spanish.
Is there a de facto standard pronunciation of Schiavo as “Shy-vo”? I kind of doubt it - it’s just too far from the original. I would expect something more like “Shee-avo”.
Not around here they don’t. Or at least, I rarely hear those variants. I’ve mainly heard “San Pay-dro”, “San Ho-zay”, and “San Rah-fie-ell” – which also isn’t Spanish, but is a little bit closer. I will admit to calling Los Feliz “Los Fee-liss” though.
No, everyone in the Bay Area pronounces San Rafael as San Ra-fell. You got San Pedro and San Jose right.
It is true that people simply take the pronounciation for their name that’s least confusing and more easily spoken. Good example is the Chinese surname Ng. It’s pronounced Eng in English (and some people choose to spell it that way), but that’s definitely not how it’s spoken in Chinese.
If you live in the part of Los Angeles near the harbor, it is called “San Peedro” or even “Peedro”, but if you’re not from that area, the locals don’t want you to pronounce it that way. It’s a rather insular part of Los Angeles.
The pronunciation of Spanish place names here in Southern California can get quite heated. Newscasters here have taken some heat for their pronunciations of Spanish place names. Some people think that some pronunciations are too “Spanish sounding”.
As for family names that have much different pronunciations, compare the pronunciation of Japanese surnames by Japanese-Americans and then when you get to Japan. Unless you have heard them for a while, an American will wonder why they don’t recognize any names on the news. But the Japanese pronunciation of Suzuki is almost uncregonizable at first. (As an example)
I’m not sure how long it takes, but the language spoken by immigrants doesn’t seem to take that long to diverge from that spoken in the old country. A friend of mine came over to the US from Germany some time in the 20’s and settled in Milwaukee, WI which had a rather large German population. His first reaction on trying to converse in German was, “Do these people think they are speaking German?”
Place names, being usages on which community consensus must exist, are clearly subject to standardization by the community using them. San Pedro pronounced to rhyme with “can weed row” is the proper usage for that part of LA, even if a cultured Hispanic who would say “Sahn Pay-dro” winces to hear it.
However, Hyperelastic’s opinion is worth exactly the amount of electrons it took to carry it. A person is the sole authority on how to spell and say his own name, regardless if every other bearer of that name says or writes it differently.
The part that bothers me about the person’s right to pronounce his own name is the attitude that often accompanies that right. If I’m calling out my students’ names the first day of class and I pronounce, say, “Rizzi” as ‘Reet-see,’ more likely than not, I’ll get a correction with some nasty edge to it.
I went to school with a girl with the name Benoit, which we pronounced Ben-OIT.
One day we had a supply teacher who pronounced it Ben-WAH. The girl said that is the way it should be pronounded, but that everone said Ben-OIT so they just went along with it .
If you think Americans mangle italian names, try 'em out on french surnames. My wife’s last name is Gauthier, pronounced Gotyay, but Americans cannot say anything except Goth-yeer unless we really train 'em. Same goes for Berthiaume (Bair-tyoam v. Ber-thoom) and Paquette (Pack-ett v. Pocket). Heck, there are people in the maritime provinces who pronounce Paquette as ‘pocket’.
A lot of Scottish and Irish surnames get the same treatment as well. The brothers Loughead went ahead and changed the spelling of the name to Lockheed so they wouldn’t have to listen to “Luff-head.” And I know only one Dougherty who holds out for pronouncing his name “Dockerty.”
There are a lot of Czech and German communities to the west of Houston. My mom worked with a Jody Tobias who pronounced it “Toh-by-us.” Her parents, who lived seventy miles away, pronounced it “Toh-bee-osh.” The same went for a Fikac: “fee-kak” in the big city; “fee-koch” back at home.
A friend named Cunningham moved to a German/Czech town. Considering the ‘Happy Days’ jokes said by the Hruskas and Tobiases, I’m surprised that she didn’t somehow Czechify her name.